How poor does a coin need to be before it's not good enough for you?

I must admit that in my specialist areas I set the bar very low. I will illustrate this below with two coins of Probus from my collection.

The first coin is my most recent Probus addition. I bought it from a relatively large auction house that was obviously having a clear out of bargain basement coins where everything started at Eur 1.

Probus
Obv:– IMP C PROBVS AVG, Radiate, cuirassed bust right
Rev:– PAX AVG, Pax standing left, holding olive-branch and sceptre
Minted in Lugdunum (D | _) Emission 9 Officina 4. January – August A.D. 282
Reference(s) – Cohen -. Bastien 426 (2 examples cited). RIC - Bust type F (not listed with this obverse legend)

Weight 2.96g. 23.59mm. 180 degrees



The obverse legend in one of the scarcer legend varieties at Lugdunum.

The second coin was bought about 13 years ago on ebay and cost me what I would expect to pay for 3 decent coins from this mint.

Probus
Obv:– IMP C PROBVS AVG, Radiate cuirassed bust left with spear over right shoulder
Rev:– TEMPOR FELICIT, Felicitas standing right, holding caduceus and cornucopiae
Minted in Lugdunum (II in exe) Emission 8 Officina 2. Autumn to Late A.D. 281
Reference:– Cohen -. Bastien -. RIC 108 (Rare)
Obverse die match to the plate coin in RIC

Weight 3.81g. 22.50mm. 0 degrees



This bust type is only known from a single die at Lugdunum. As far as I have been able to determine mine is the second known example. The other is in the BM and was somehow overlooked by Bastien when he surveyed their holdings in his analysis (even though their example is in the plates in RIC) and as such this appears to be only the second known example.

How low will you go?

Martin

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

This low:


EGYPT, Alexandria. Augustus
80 drachmai (diobol); 26 mm, 14.2 gm
First series, struck circa 30-28 BC
Obv: bare head right
Rev: eagle standing left on thunderbolt; cornucopia to left, Π to right
Ref: Emmett 1; RPC I 5001

Purchased from a reputable dealer on eBay.

Why did I want this bronze dog? Because it is one of the earliest coins of Roman Egypt. In Emmett's catalog the type is numbered 1. He lists it as Augustus but if the date of striking is correct, he was still called Octavian.

The design and styling mimic late Ptolemaic bronzes-- in particular, Cleopatra VII (a 40 drachmae shown below; her 80 drachmae were the same but with a Π in the upper right reverse field:


EGYPT, Ptolemaic dynasty. Kleopatra VII Thea Neotera
51-30 BCE
AE 40 drachmae
Obv: Diademed and draped bust right
Rev: KΛEOΠATPAΣ BΑΣΙΛΙΣΣHΣ, Diademed and draped bust right / Eagle standing left on thunderbolt; double cornucopiae to left, M (mark of value) to right
Ref: Svoronos 1872; Weiser 184-5; SNG Copenhagen 422-4

A blurb about the Emmett I type from CNG's archives:

"The first coinage of the new province of Egypt was a direct copy of the bronze coinage of Cleopatra, the last Ptolemaic ruler, with the portrait of Augustus replacing the Queen’s. Egypt, wealthy and a vital source of grain for the empire, was to be never allowed again as a potential leaping-off point for a rival emperor. The new province was held under tight control by the emperor. Its governor was to be an equestrian prefect answerable to Augustus, with a legion under his direct command. The Senate would have no say in the administration of the province, and in fact, senators were forbidden to travel there without permission."

Would I like a better example? You bet . They don't come up that often though.

 

For me the answer depends. 95% of my coins are vf or better. However, I have a few coins that are F+ because they are rare and I could not find another one or because the VF coins are way out of my budget. I have a few EF coins but I do not deliberately target them. For example, for my 12 Caesars I have a Caligula that is VF. The EF examples go for 5 to 10 times what I paid for the VF so I am happy with the VF. My Otho os F+, a VF would be several times more. I have a Galba RIC 236 that I have only seen for sale once and I bought that coin. It is a F+, but I have satisfied with it because it was the first one in years to come up for sale.

 

A few of my cut Augustus/Agrippa with Crocodile reverse coins, I bought a lot of about 40 of these for $8,

From Doug Smiths article about these, the quarters are supposedly rare, but mine has absolutely zero detail remaining.

some of the good ones.

 

When exactly one of a coin is known to exist, it is by definition the finest known even if it is about fair. When two are known and the best is in the British Museum, the other one will just have to do for people like us. Below I will show three of my coins that I would love to upgrade. Of them, I am aware of one that exists better and two that do not. I do so wish I had bought the better one but that does not make me want to throw any of them in the rubbish.

One seen better:


No other seen:


Volusian Alexandria - Best portrait, best legend, worst overall coin of type?


These may be 'space fillers' but even when that space is filled by better, they are still keepers in my book. I do not see buying poor examples of things easily available by the bagful but there are still some of us who value rarity over grade.

 

I have more than my share of lower end coins, so it was hard to choose. How about:

LYCIAN DYNASTS, MITHRAPATA
AR 1/6 stater
OBVERSE: Facing lion's scalp
REVERSE: Triskeles within shallow incuse square; in field, astralagos
Struck at Uncertain mint, 390-370 BC
1g; 12mm
Müseler VII, 83; SNG von Aulock 4246; Falghera 196; SNG Copenhagen 27
ex Saint Paul Antiques, LTD

 

I may have no minimum standards. I have several that are quite miserable, but am willing to do worse should the wrong specimens become available.


As, 1st century AD, 7.10g 24mm
Countermark is probably retrograde and blundered TICA (Claudius, 43 AD) or TICAE (Tiberius)
Square hole from square nail.

 

I'm always interested in coins if they are rare, regardless of condition.

 

LOL, I was JUST about to post mine when I saw yours Ed! I agree. I , too, have no minimum standards. I collect historically, so the actual coin is always of value to me. I do not collect numismatically, so I cannot honestly tell anyone the criteria for F, VF, EX, etc...

When I read Harl's book on Coinage of the Roman Economy, I really appreciated what the blank-worn coins with counter-stamps mean. To ensure and assure change for the Legions.


Augustus As four countermarks 25-23 mm 9.8g TICA AVG probably for Tiberius Augustus CE14-37 Dolphin
Ex: Warren Esty


Half-As way of making change again:

RI Augustus 27 BCE-14CE AE As or Semis Spain Celsa Mint 29mm 5.0g Laureate Augustus - Bull RPC271 Cut in ancient times to make change

 

I have some some rather corroded tokens but in that collection I'll put up with a lot more than my ancients. For a rare or scarce base/unit I'll put up with quite a bit. My ancients I collect a little differently...however I will put up with a lot sometimes for the right reason. The below coin was less than a dollar:


Ptolemy IX, BC 117-58
AE, 3.21g, 16mm; 12h; Neopaphos mint, Cyprus
Obv.: Head of Zeus Right
Rev.: Zeus standing holding torch & staff, star above

Is it worth the $0.99 cents I paid (free shipping)? I was still pretty new to ancients, it was much smaller than my other coins from the Ptolemy dynasty, and it was someone I didn't have.

 

As ancients collectors, we march to a different drummer, compared to collectors of moderns. The history element effects how we see our coins. For me, an ancient coin has value unless it is a common variety with a virulent case of bronze disease. Then I might consider giving it a proper burial.

 

Again, a very good question to hone your collecting habits on. I'm a real stickler for condition, but I will never pay more than the four digit amount and that only in very special cases (I did it once, in 2015). Usually I stop at $300, but this will never get me that Sasanian gold dinar I would like, unless it's worn and holed.

However, I never found one, a Sasanian dinar in bad condition. And all coins that I paid more than $300 for, are in excellent condition. Like this Kidara Hunnic drachm, that's one of the 5 most expensive of my collection.



But maybe the second coin here is a good example of a type I wanted so much that I accepted a poor one... It cost only $25:
AE fals Tahirids (a dynasty subject to the Abbasids). Ruler Talha b. Tahir (822-828), mint Bust in Southern Afghanistan. About 825 AD. Obv. rough Sasanian head to the right in a circle, surrounded by unreadable text. Rev. Arabic text. 18 mm, 2.00 gr. Album 1394 ('RR'). This is the last Sasanian coin type in Iran. Zeno 148375. An Islamic coin 175 years after the death of the last Sasanian king.

 

I used to settle for poor, barely recognisable coins to fill a hole in my portrait series. But now i'm more discerning, and I really need to love it before i buy it.

So i have quite a few unacceptable hole-fillers coins on my upgrade list.

This Procopius isn't up to my standards anymore, and I'm looking for a siliqua to replace it:



This Carausius is miserable, and I'm donating it to the end-of-year Secret Saturnalia (if i find a nice one by then):



And this poor Saloninus is no longer acceptable:

 

OH THE HUMANITY!!





It's an AP Zeumga temple reverse. I keep it for the countermark.

 

My standard? Pretty low. It just has to be identifiable.

I'm partially joking here. There is no simple answer to this question when it comes to ancient coins. There are times when having high standards with regard to condition makes sense. If you are simply trying to accumulate one coin per emperor in a Roman collection or one coin per city in a Greek collection -- with no attention to variety -- it makes sense to have high standards. The well-heeled collector will have no trouble assembling a 12-Caesars portrait set of denarii in FDC condition.

However, if one is a specialist collector, you have to take what you can get. The specialist often encounters coins that are in suboptimal condition but only come on the market once a decade, if that. I specialize in Antonine women. These coins, for example, may look common, but they are scarce varieties that have only come up for sale a few times in the past 20 years:




Now these coins aren't unattractive, to be sure, but they don't grade higher than VF.

When it comes to Roman provincial coins, the specialist collector is at a particular disadvantage. The mintage of any particular issue was limited and there are numerous provincial coins which are apparently unpublished or known from only one or two examples. Try to find any of these for sale:






Some coins typically circulated for decades and even the specimens in museums are well-worn, such as this semi-autonomous issue from Smyrna:



Provincials collectors can't be too choosy. Have you looked at the plates in Lindgren? Had Henry Clay Lindgren been concerned about condition and grade, he wouldn't have had much of a collection.

My advice runs counter to that a beginner often hears. Don't be such a condition crank that you pass on fun and enjoyable coins. Don't obsess about the faults of the coins you do own, but look at each coin as a learning opportunity. That coin with the ragged flan illustrates ancient flan preparation techniques. The off-center provincial with the interesting reverse type may never come up at auction again in a decade. The well-worn sestertius of Antoninus Pius was handled by thousands of people in ancient times and passed through the hands of laborers and gladiators and slaves and merchants and aristocrats.

 

I'm not a specialist in any area, but I sometimes fancifully reckon I might give a Twelve Labours of Hercules set a go. During one of those moments, I bought this absolute dog of a provincial showing Hercules in the Garden of the Hesperides (11th Labour). The unsettling thought here is that if I want to seriously try complete that set on my budget, it's very likely that I'll have to sink to even lower depths...


GORDIAN III
AE34. 20.82g, 34.3mm. CILICIA, Tarsus, circa AD 238-244. SNG France 1667 var. (rev legend). O: AVT KAI M ANTΩNIOC ΓOPΔIANOC CЄB, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right; Π – Π in exergue. R: TAPCOV MHTPOΠOΛЄΩ / A M - K Γ B, Hercules standing facing, head left, holding club and apples of the Hesperides; tree to left, from which hangs the carcass of the monstrous serpent Ladon.

 

Pretty low

 

That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Over the years, CNG has sold a few examples of this coin, but all of them had issues. This one, for example, has rough surfaces and areas of corrosion. Nonetheless, it had an estimate of $300.

 

A specialist in Roman provincials only wanting coins in EF probably doesn't exist. One wanting coins in only VF has set for themselves a tall order .

 

I love this half as but question whether I would warm up to the other half showing the backsides of man and beast. This is not a matter of VF or MS but the simple fact that our human tendencies favor faces.

The Nemausis back to back portraits allow either half to have a whole head making these very splitable coins. Who prefers croc fillets over heads?