How is this market acceptable?

Im really starting to question my place in this hobby. Dont get me wrong I absolutely LOVE coins and appreciate them and hold them dear to my heart, but my personality just doesnt seem to be compatible.

I have this terrible, terrible habit of nit-picking things to death. Especially for flaws. No matter what I see or do it seems I am always picking up on the negative things, mostly in order to improve on something in the future.

It started with food, like meals being cooked. I always say something like: this dish is missing........, or maybe this ingredient wouldve made it better, etc. I also do this with structural things like buildings and trim and paint drips, etc.

Now it seems this has started to bleed through into my hobby and it makes it difficult to enjoy. Like the coin referenced above, I see all the beauty and all of the positive things it has to offer, but I also noticed that scratch and get stuck on things like that. Kind of shows me what to look out for in the future (and this is still a great coin, btw). The only problem with this though is that I cant financially collect the real coins that dont have noticeable issues.

Am I just taking this too seriously or what? I mean i still enjoy collecting coins, its just that I have to fight those nagging feelings to be so negative about them.

I have a 1917 SLQ in MS-64 with a FH designation from NGC and I can find issues with that coin all day long. Most are just inherent things that happen with a coin, but it just seems like no matter how good the coin is I am immediately drawn to locate any and all flaws I can identify. Its a curse, I swear.

 

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I hear you and believe it or not I tend to be like that as well in some areas. Luckily not with coins, I do not need an MS70 to be happy with a coin. Don't know what to tell you... maybe you can always buy the better coins in each grade range like a VF-35 CAC just to give an example and think about the coin like "it's among the best examples in the VF range"... would that work?

 

I wasnt focused on the other small scratches, yes I seen them, but I wasnt out to note EVERY issue with the coin, just the most concerning to me and how it passed a details grade. Ill be sure to tag you in every in-depth, detailed thread I post so I can make sure my threads are up to YOUR standards.

My issues as you put them are out of context for you apparently, as this is NOT the first thread I have posted a gripe about the TPGs.

May I be using too much magnification, this may be possible, but in hand, without magnification it is still visible, as in I can see shiny metal when rotating it back and forth that is broken through the luster and surface. Largely depends on the light how well it can be seen. Incandescent it shows up nicely, fluorescent I have to work a little more to see it.

I admit my mistakes all the time, here on these open boards, again feel free to find SEVERAL of my postings where I do just exactly that.

As for Doug, he is not the end all, be all for coin grading and collecting. This is not to belittle Doug in any manner. He is VERY knowledgeable and knows his stuff alot better than most, but plain and simply put, what appeals to him doesnt exactly appeal to me. What I see as an issue, he may not, and vice versa. Flavors of ice cream Lehigh, I like vanilla.

The LAST thing I believe is that others should do ANYTHING for me. I dont expect anything from anybody. Ive accepted my lesson from this issue. Cool believe I wont buy another coin with an issue this distracting to me. I also believe that you shouldn't really hassle sellers with returns. Granted the pictures could've been better, but I pulled the trigger, I spent the money, so it's pretty much my coin at this point and I consider a lesson more than anything.

If you have a problem with how I personally work out a situation, then fine, cruise right past my thread if you want. You dont need to belittle me and tell me how wrong I am doing everything when I genuinely want to learn.

Also, I am not convinced entirely it is a staple scratch. I am simply saying that chasing long shots arent my style and the simplest answer probably wins. Staples, intentional graffiti, these are more likely than random gashes making a nice clean little 'X'

Let me ask you a question since you seem to have a ton of expertise on my coin. Have you handled it in person? You made alot of assumptions if not. The first being my level of magnification if I can see it with the naked eye. Obviously you all couldnt see it from the sellers pictures and neither could I. I HAD to enhance the size obviously. Sheesh.

Also, you are convinced on what the future holds for this coin when I have literally only had it since Friday. I thought this place was somewhere we could post images and ask questions. I had a straightforward question. How is it market acceptable?

Some see it as intentional damage, some see it as circulation wear. Even seasoned collectors cant agree entirely.

My rebuttal to the issue was postulated as an improvement for the overall benefit of this hobby. What is wrong with adding additional technical information to the back of the slab?

Here are just a few positive outcomes from such a thing:
1) Detailed description highlighting the best positive attribute and worst negative attribute. This ensures we know a little bit more about the coin
2) More complete description to base our decisions off of when coins are bought sight unseen or through shabby photos
3) Increased profits for TPGs by resubmittals to have this info posted on every coin. Thats alot of dosh and likely incentive for the TPGs
4) Better liquidity with online selling platforms
5) Less returns due to improper descriptions and bad photos
6) Reminiscent of the days and methods of Auction Catalog Descriptions

So not only have I in fact owned up to many of my mistakes Lehigh, but I have also offered a realistic alternative that benefits all but shady sellers trying to hide bad things about coins on purpose.

So please tell me again how this thread is not beneficial and how it hasnt at least opened my mind to some things and possibly benefited the numismatic world at hand by just the very suggestion of changing how slabs are labeled?

Can you even say anything bad about the idea of putting more information on the backside of a slab? TPG Cost? Time Consumption? Increased Grading Fees? Tell me.

 

I think Occams Razor carved a little X on the reverse of this coin. I'll be the contrarian here... I would not be happy if I purchased this coin as problem free.

 

I think its just something over time that I am going to have to train myself away from. I even scour MS-70s looking for rubs and luster breaks to be sure they got the grade right.

Problem with collecting MS-70s though is that they dont exist for the coins I like...LOL

 

Occams little Razor blade, perhaps?

I cant say im not happy with the coin, because overall I really am, im just trying to understand and the more I seek those answers, the more I am relinquishing my reliance on what the TPGs put on the outside of that slab. Id say thats a lesson worth learning.

 

Who knows who or what made those marks , but I've seen more seated coins with X's than probably any others. Was there an unusually high incidence of counterfeiting during that period, so they were checked? If deep at all are they "domestic" or otherwise chop marks? Was it simply a way for someone to claim ownership (their X)? Who knows?

So, you're into this coin and can't get out? If so, I have some of those that otherwise are nice coins and I live with them - most coins aren't perfect.

 

I think you should be fine and I understand why these marks bother you more than other marks on the coin and even more than the dip that the coin was previously subjected to. I also do not believe these are circulation marks, but rather marks that the coin earned during holding, examination and storage as a collectible.

You have every right to be unhappy with these marks and to reject them as not suitable for your collection. In my opinion, it seems to me that you are upset about the marks more because they appear to be a consequence of intent instead of happenstance. That would bother me, too. Of course, the dipping that the coin received was also a matter of intent, but this is sort of like comparing apples and oranges.

My advice to you, which I readily acknowledge you have not asked for, would be to ship the coin back and wait for a more suitable piece that will make you happier in the long run.

Good luck.

 

I'm not, I repeat NOT, trying to get out of this coin at all. It will stay in my collection for exactly as long as it is supposed to be there. I don't know the circumstance under which we will part, but it will happen one day, one way or another.

I'm just trying to understand if this is truly a problem with me, or the TPGs?

I already know I can find other coins that don't have issues like this. Like I said earlier I don't believe in really returning coins like this so I consider it a lesson and move on. Doesn't mean I can't use the mistake as a chance to grow and learn though.

I did pay relatively high retail though.

 

Well said Tom. My only exception is that I just don't return coins. I will move it eventually some other way, but for now it needs to be kept as a lesson and also an example of what is in my opinion something that should have never been graded. I can live with dipping, just trying to wrap my head around that scratch and how everything culminated to where we are now. At least in my mind.

 

You had a straight forward question that was answered several times by some very experienced people, yet you continue your little rant about an insignificant blemish and the evil TPGs.

The TPGs don't have the space to include a detailed written description of the coin. Auction houses and most dealers that I know provide a written description of their coins in their listings. Even small time E-Bay sellers like myself often provide a written description to help the potential buyer. And yes, I will often make note of a negative attribute if I feel it is warranted. Perhaps you should simply limit yourself to buying from reputable dealers who give you the kind of information that you are looking for. Or perhaps you should punish those dealers who don't provide a written description by returning a coin when it comes with a little surprise.

The additional information that I want the TPGs to put on the label is the date that the coin was graded and encapsulated. I certainly don't need a description, I can write my own. If I was going to ask for details from the TPGs, I would want a breakdown of their grade for each element of grading. It would be helpful to know if an MS65 coin was: SP-65 L-65 S-65 EA-65 or SP-64 L-66 S-65 EA-67.

 

You must remember I am going off of the pics provided. They marks just don;t seem deep enough for me to say that they are graffiti marks. Who knows how the marks got on the coin, funny things can happen in circulation. It is a circulated coin, how knows what was in the pocket of the individual that caused the marks. I feel that you have just a good of chance of those marks being there from circulation as you have from someone placing them on the coin intentionally. If I was going to place a mark on a coin I think I would have made it deeper using a ball point pen or what have it.

Even if they are intentional I do not feel that the marks are severe enough to keep this coin from grading. I've been burnt on pics before so maybe in hand I have a different opinion.

 

"You had a straight forward question that was answered several times by some very experienced people, yet you continue your little rant about an insignificant blemish and the evil TPGs."
I agree with Lehigh96.
I can find something I don't like about most coins but that does not make them problem coins.

 

Show me a consensus Larry? I got Doug who says its not likely a problem, weve got Matt who says its intentional, and Tom who says its likely intentional too. I value many of you alls opinion, and consider them all in my future thoughts on the matter. But please show me where there is a concrete opinion on this coin because I dont see it.

So can we not agree that there is not a straightforward answer when I am STILL getting mixed reviews two days later.

 

Its funny, I am the one who actually has the coin in hand and I have taken better pictures to actually show the problem because you cant see it from the sellers pictures. I was accused of using too high of magnification for doing that, although as ive said about three times now throughout the course of this thread, i can plainly see the shimmering effect of raw silver versus the actual mostly original surface (save for the dip) when rotating it in hand.

I believe if it wasnt a staple, then the next likely culprit is something closer to that of a safety pin or a needlepoint pin. Its too thin to be a ballpoint pen or anything larger from my view point.

 

Do you even read anything I write, or the responses of others? How is an answer straightforward when the responders to this thread are split about even on it being a problem coin or not. Do I need to tally that up for you?

Perhaps if you dont like the way I do things simply avoid my threads? I dont have unrealistic standards, in fact I have had several people validate my concerns, reputable dealers even. Tom B and Matt are BOTH great people and dealers and both agree they wouldnt have bought the coin knowing that mark was there and it was graded problem free.

So again I ask, what straightforward answer are you talking about?

As for the info on the back of the slabs. Have you seen how much space is where the hologram is located? There is plenty of room for two sentences in small font to describe the coin from a paid EXPERTS point of view, not yours, not DLRC, not Stacks, not some random ebay seller i dont know, but the people paid for their opinion on the matter.

Just because you are mister awesome coin collector doesnt mean every other person interested in coins is that savvy. In fact I would say more collectors are crippled by the TPGs thinking for them and more information is always a good thing in that respect. Sure would help to know a little bit more about what you are buying without always having to rely on seeing awesome pictures or the coin in hand. Somehow it has escaped you that many of the collectors of coins are slightly older men. A combination that doesnt exactly lend itself to always having people who can take fancy photos and write up super detailed descriptions using technology over the internet. There are many buyers/collectors who can barely turn the computer on to buy to begin with, but sometimes people like that sell coins eventually and dont have a ton of expertise in doing so. I still see it on ebay from time to time, I can imagine a new era of slab would have benefits there too. And like I previously mentioned, my tactic sure would keep the crappy sellers out there alot more honest. It would be hard for the seller to argue that there isnt a scratch on this coin if it was described on the slab itself on the back. And again, vice versa, as a buyer I wouldnt be able to claim I bought a coin that wasnt described correctly because we are removing that from the people who stand to profit the most.

Unfortunately, I dont live in a world where I get everything that I want, and its hard finding dealers who are willing to describe the most negative things about their coins. The majority of them highlight the best points on a coin and often times leave you left to find any potential flaws. Not saying all dealers are like that, but many are.

 

Where is this standard explained? I just purchased the ANA grading book that you suggested, where can I locate the information regarding this topic in it, I havent seen much of anything about this, maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

To me, in hand, the marks are noticeable, so how severe is that? What determines the size cut off both in measures of depth and in length? 3mm long, 5mm long, or is it 3mm on a quarter if its on the reverse, and 5 mm if it is on a quarter and on the obverse? What about depth?

Who determines prime focal points on a coin? I can understand a scratch being 'lost' between letters of a legend or something like that, so I really do understand a bit on how these calls are made, and I am truly trying to understand better.

Is there somewhere out there I can find this information? I mean some focal points are quite obvious, I may be wrong, but where this scratch is located would be a fairly prime location, again in my eyes. It is right between 2 major reverse design elements, the eagle and the ribbon.

 

I mentioned this earlier too Doug, but maybe my standards for what is acceptable is a little more strict than the TPGs and even the ANA.

Not saying thats a bad thing at all, as I am the one responsible for adding to my collection and enjoying what I purchase. I would however, like to reconcile my opinion with the industry standard and try to learn what to keep my eyes open for in the long run.

 

The new guy was putting "x" on the coins he was grading so he could remember which
ones' he did.