How is gradeflation going to affect the hobby longterm?

That^ made me think this...

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Grading standards have not degraded. You and I - the collectors who carry the hobby forward, not the TPG's - decide what the grade is, and we don't use BS standards. The TPG's only hurt themselves in the long run my market grading; let them do it. Their grades have no bearing on my opinions.

 

Gorgeous "Bustie" looks better than a 63 to me now. I love these, they remind me of my first GF...

 

I agree they certainly have had some looser periods, though in my opinion they've tightened right back up in the last year.

But let me ask you this, does it really matter? To me grading in its most simplistic form is nothing more than a ranking system. If we say an F is now a VF and a VF now and XF ect, in the end the old VFs are still regarded as a better piece with their XF grade than the new VF is. The ranking didn't actually change the term and grade just evolved.

If we look way back to me it seems some methods were more accepted back than then they would be today, and to be fair the reverse would certainly be true as well. Granted some of those wiping methods ect were a necessity given the lack of preservation methods at the time but in my opinion that sort of reinforces my earlier point that we really aren't comparing the exact same systems or standards. We've added so many new layers to the grade and the grade within the grade that while the terms may be the same as before, there are fundamental differences that are often over looked in comparisons.

I think it would be fascinating to be able to go back and use their grading system as well as have them come forward and use ours to see what the differences really are when compared within the same system.

 

@baseball21 You do know that PCGS and NGC will clean your coins for a fee, and then slab them. I think in the case of PCGS its something like $10 plus 4% of the market value of the coin. So yeah, I guess the message today is "Cleaning is acceptable, but only if you let us at PCGS do it... for the right fee." Of course, they don't call it cleaning, they call it "Restoration."

I wouldn't be surprised if the grading services personally encouraged dealers to start resubmitting coins to try to get a grade bump. After all, it benefits their bottom lines tremendously. They may not have said it out in the open, but I wouldn't put it past them.

 

Cleaning and restoration always have and always will be different. None of the grading services will clean coins, they will only restore with appropriate and even if you ask them too they will tell you no when they feel its not appropriate

 

You can get your marketing people to slap a different label on a pig, it's still a pig. How can you "restore" a coin and say there is no cleaning whatsoever involved in the process?

 

Acetone is cleaning? PVC shouldn't be dipped off? ect

I notice your avatar is an ancient coin, do you consider everyone of them cleaned or were they "restored" and you just hate TPGs in general?

 

This is all why I only buy raw coins that I like. I couldn't care less that a desirable coin is MS63+ or AU or EF+. If I like it and it looks nice then I'll buy it. Most of the coins that I've bought in graded holders have been broken out of those holders and placed in my collection. There are scores of white EF and AU coins out there that look nicer than many toned MS coins. I don't invest; I collect. I'll take the nice looking ones any day.

 

I missed this earlier my apologies but you are absolutely correct. The population reports are nice as a starting point but nothing can replace the knowledge of a specialist or someone very passionate about a series when it comes to the availability of coins. Nothing is worse then thinking something is common and passing on one you like only to go a few years still searching for another other a small percentage of the price difference.

I do think the population reports overall are a good thing as a starting point, but with the internet now a days with Great Collections, Heritage, Ebay ect and the PCGS coin dealer search function looking through those sources for examples or how often rarer coins come to market is probably a better real world indicator of how inflated (or accurate) some of those populations may be from crack outs and cross overs.

 

Kind of ironic eh? Wasn't it lack of confidence in certificates that gave the slab boys their big start? And the opportunity to be "disinterested" third parties? Or am I "mis-recollecting?"

 

If you ask any ancient coin collector, every single one will readily admit that all their coins have been cleaned at some point. You have to, as ancients come out of the ground heavily encrusted in mineral deposits and dirt. So unless you want the coin so heavily encrusted that you can't even tell what it is, cleaning is a must and is readily accepted. It's no problem at all, unless you go too far and overclean it to the point you are just tooling a coin or remove all patina.

And yes, dipping in acetone is a form of cleaning. Granted, it may do a lot more good than anything else especially if your goal is to remove PVC which will damage your coin. But it is still a form of cleaning.

 

When I am looking to buy a coin I need for a set I'm collecting I do scour the multitude of auction houses, Ebay, etc for several purposes. First is to see how much various grades are/were selling/sold for. Since I have shied away from certified coins in most instances since I want to put raw coins in albums, I try to compare the conditions of the raw coins against the slabbed ones. Of course the slabbed coins usually have a premium added so if a comparable raw coin is being sold at certified prices I'll usually shy away from it. When I purchased better grade coins to fill my Lincoln cent set I did a lot of homework first (ie, 1909-S VDB, 1914-D, 1922 no D) to feel confident I wasn't buying counterfeits. To me that was the fun part of it since it forced me to do a little research first.

 

Absolutely, the same holds true for many of the classic coins as well especially the circulated ones. My point was more or less that cleaning is a matter of opinion when we aren't talking about harshly cleaned things. It all comes down to market acceptable which changes over times, but there are certainly instances I believe we can all think of where a coin needs treatment.

 

Having worked at an art conservation lab in the past, I can say that there can be a difference between "cleaning" and "restoration." I saw many sculptures and paintings ruined by people who thought they could use general cleaning products on artwork. One person took a chunk out of a painting with a feather duster. Others discolored marble or other substances to execrable degrees. Those were expensive mistakes. I don't know exactly what PGCS does, but I certainly hope they provide actual "restoration" and not just "cleaning." Does anyone know the details?

 

It sure is a matter of opinion, isn't it? I can agree with that sentiment. Both these silver denarii have been cleaned at some point (and perhaps more than once), and they have been cleaned to different extents. Some may look at both and think they are market acceptable as they are, and some may look at the Septimius Severus with it's deep and dark centuries old patina (and remnants of mineral deposits) and pass on it because they want something shinier.

There is no right and wrong as far as I'm concerned, as long as the coin is not physically damaged in the process and it appeals to you. But then again, I recognize my opinion as an ancient coins collector is radically different from that of a modern bullion collector, or a modern US coin collector, etc. Having a variety of opinions is never a bad thing.


Trajan denarius


Septimius Severus denarius


* again, both are cleaned silver coins. To what extent you'd prefer, it's entirely up to your subjective tastes. I personally like both.

 

I could not agree more. The point I was trying to make all along (which I may not have done a good job) is that grading and details grading ect all have a level of subjectivity that we often over look when we talk about varying standards over the years. Its always just chalked up to the fact that standards are loser and we never take into the account that we just may have a different view on some of the subjective parts which could account for a good chunk of the differences. Just look at how coins have evolved from those pieces you posted to what we see today. There's just so much more to it than they were better at it then we were

PS market acceptable or not I would enjoy both of those coins you posted

 

They hold process details very close to the cuff. They don't really want the hobby to know how easy it is to conserve a coin, and they don't want everyone and their brother who are incapable of even that moderate level of caution from trashing every round thing they see. They do nothing an average numismatist couldn't do in the home, with the right equipment.

Or, at least, that's my guess. I don't know how they do it either.

But I know how to do it, and it's scary simple once you know the nature of what you have to remove.

 

I'll just say this, if finances aren't a major concern consider all sources. There's some amazing coins in slabs you may be missing out. I certainly understand not wanting to crack mint state coins though mid vf would be much less of a risk.

I am a lot like you. I enjoy the hunt just as much as the find. I generally go after the keys and and better dates at this point. I find I get bored of something far to quickly if at any given time I can log on and pick from several hundred examples. But those ones I had to work for and took a bit of time to find, they really are fun to hold and look at.