How do I talk to a slab person about ancient coin grading?

I love the tiger!

Here is an example where the rarity was the driver and not the condition. This coin is listed as R3 (unique) in RIC. Since publication in 2007, a few but very few have surfaced. What makes this rare is the lack of devices on the reverse in between and below the figures of Titus and Domitian.

When this appeared I knew I wanted it regardless of condition. Yes it is a little rough. Yes, the flan is irregular. Did I care? No. I knew that if I did not buy it the chances of seeing another in my lifetime were small to none. I look at it everyday and do not regret the purchase one bit.

This is a group 1 unmarked denarius from 69-70 CE. It is RIC 1395.

 

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Devices?

I love the tiger, too. Add wear and poor striking and you can see a panther.

 

The mintmark which you can see a trace of just below the line below the 2 figures on your coin.

 

Doug, thanks for your note. I found your 1997 website shortly after starting to collect ancient coins in 2004. I also liked the Calgary Coins grading webpage - http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/grading/grading.htm

I still use your grading system when I grade ancient coins. This is from a description of one of my coins.

Issued by - L.SAVF / Lucius Saufeius
Mint Date: 152 BC
Obverse - Roma
Reverse - Victory in Biga
Weight - 3.70 g - my coin
Weight data of 108 other coins
Max - 4.32
Min - 3.15
Avg - 3.83
St Dev - 0.22

Grade (vendor) - SPL+
Grade (me) - EF
Centering - Well centered on flan that is only slightly larger than the die
Strike - well struck from new dies
Flan flaws - none
Style - good style, plenty of fine details, Good Eye Appeal
Patination - light toning
Damage - none


I am a member of three coin clubs in the Houston area. Most do not collect ancient coins, but they are willing to listen to me ramble on about mine. I was a bit surprised by the details comment. Thanks for your comments Barry Murphy.

 

I can appreciate the physical protection a slab provides as well as the peace of mind from the extra verification, but the hyper focus on grades drove me away from U.S. coin collecting. Condition will always play a major role in most types of collecting, but I couldn’t spend all my time trying to determine a 64 vs a 65.

 

Indeed. I was astonished when I bought this one that somebody had thought it cost-effective to slab a common antoninianus of Gallienus, particularly when the slab mis-attributes it to the wrong mint (it was struck in Cologne, not Rome).

 

With "hammered" coins TPG are very liberal in grading indeed. A PGGS MS-65 Flanders (Louis De Male) Cavalier d'or struck at Ghent mint circa 1367 appeared in i-numis auction. They graded it supberb+ (EF+) Kunker had a AV Dobla from Pedro the Cruel graded st. (MS) Coin was absolutely flawless, perfect strike, surfaces, looked beautifull in eye appeal. I said it before, how many CNG graded "EF" coins later undergo a "metamorphis) and become TPG MS-64/65/66!!!!! Most be alchemy.

 

It's not alchemy, it's the fact that Kunker and CNG almost never use grades above Choice EF, for anything, no matter how nice the coin is. They really do their consignors a disservice by just calling anything nice EF or Choice EF when the coins are clearly mint state.

Barry Murphy

 

Tossing in a few more examples and talking points:

These two have brand-spankin' new obverse dies, but worn out reverse dies, something you don't often encounter in modern coins




If you had to grade them, would you do the better side? Both separately? Both and then average them?

Or how about coins that are clearly mint state with faults like flat spots?



Or, a favorite of mine, this one appears to be darn close to mint state (lustrous, visible flow lines in the fields), but how would you grade it?

 

Regarding "Slabs" & "new Ancient collectors" - Here's a thought … Tell me what you think.

IMHO, I think that NGC slabbing Ancient coins will prove to be "THE" boom that catapults Ancient Coin Collecting to great heights. New collectors do not have the history of dealing with this long-term seller - with a fabulous reputation - that their "COA" really means something. I know lots of ancients are selling. Unfortunately, a mass amount of those sales to individuals are bought on places like eBay, MA-SHOPS and independent sellers on the internet. Would you agree that the presence of NGC slabbed coins would add a "needed" layer of security for the new and naïve buyers of Ancients? I think many of us who have been around for a while know what it is like to get burned on a raw coin. I would go so far as to say that being burned has driven way too many "collectors" away from the incredible hobby that we love so dearly.

Bottom-line, our hobby needs new participants to grow the ranks of our "little society". BTW...I have no idea why our hobby is referred to as the "Dark Side". Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of suck a negative appellation?

 

Ancients do not need a "boom". Do you want to pay 300.00 for a Gordian III? There are plenty of resources for new collectors who do not want to get burned. IMHO slabs are a crutch that allow those who wish to learn nothing to rely on the opinions of others rather than developing their own expertise.

MA-Shops houses many very good sellers who have some expertise when it comes to the coins they sell. What is wrong with buying from reputable dealers? As for NGC, if you like slabs then go ahead and use their service. I have respect for both of the ancients graders who work there. However, the best security is doing your homework. Know the coin or know the seller or both.

I have often told the story that I read about ancient coins for several months before purchasing one. This is not for everyone but neither is collecting ancient coins.

I will continue to crack open every slab I can get my hands on. Ancients do not belong in slabs IMHO. Ancients are meant to be handled and experienced. There are those such as David Sear who will authenticate a coins without entombing it.

And that leads me to grading. I buy what I like not the grade of a coin. If I like the look of a coin I will buy it. Grading ancient coins is much more complicated than grading modern coins. There are many more factors involved.

If you slab ancients you will turn the collecting of ancients in a grading war where perfectly acceptable coins get ignored and only the top graded coins are collected. This of course has happened to moderns.

Do not try to force a paradigm onto an area where it does not belong.

 

I see it the other way. By pricing everyone except elite investors out of the market, the hobby and serious study of numismatics will suffer the loss of people with 30 years of hands on expertise to write the standard references and even to work 'grading' ancient coins or working for the big auction houses and coin dealers. I believe the hobby would benefit most if there were thousands of twenty-somethings on their way to replacing old people like now work in the British Museum, Harlan Berk and NGC Ancients. Sealing the finest coins away in slabs and tossing the low end ones in the rubbish will not prove a long term benefit to the hobby.

 

It's a "cute" term someone came up with at some point. It's a lunar reference basically. US coins are the light side, world coins are the dark side just like the other side of the moon is called the dark side. It may have started out condescending, but I don't think many people view it that way anymore. A very significant percentage of collectors collect in more than one of the US, Ancient, World, Token, Medal categories. Almost all collectors at least dabble in another area so I don't think most would view it as a negative term anymore.

I also agree with you about grading making the hobby much more accessible for more people and that along with the internet has done a lot to bring new people in and will continue to do so. I also understand that unfortunately there all collectors out there who don't want that and would actually like to see the hobby fade so they can buy more for less

 

That's how it was used here in the early days of CT.

 

Mr. Smith, I just don't see it that way. Here's my thought: The "lower-end" conditioned coins will always be available to newbies and those on limited resources ...they won't be thrown into the rubbish. What I see is a very valuable plus in security; protection; and, selection; as only the nicest coins will be residing in the slabs....simply because of the expense to NGC. Furthermore, I may be a maverick here, but I love to see my higher end coins beautifully framed and protected; I just don't have the need to satisfy my senses by touching metal. Slabbing by NGC? Only positive results will occur.

 

This is an old topic but its always interesting to read as opinions change and members who have not commented before have done so now. I dislike slabs and wont have anything to do with them. I'm old fashioned. As a dealer if I get a coin in a slab I will leave it be and pass it on as is. As a collector I will break it out. Thats my personal preference and I dont seek to change anyones mind on the topic. But I also understand and respect why others want slabs.

What is the future? As more modern collectors move into collecting ancients slabs will only become more common. This is an undeniable truth. We will have to just live with it.

Dealing with slabs themselves is really quite easy and a non-issue. You either take the coin out or you dont, you submit it for slabbing or you dont. But the truth behind the issue is a more selfish one. What people really want to know is how slabbing will affect prices.

I see from their website bulk submissions are $20 each, though I suspect large companies like Heritage get a huge discount. Still, it wont make any economic sense to slab the most common coins, nor lower grades. Yes, I know there are already lots of them out there, mostly done by speculators or those who know nothing about the ancients market.

Currently the values for slabbed ancients remain largely unchanged for raw coins. Most people are not willing to pay any premium for a piece of plastic and an opinion (something every ancient coin dealer already does now for no extra cost, its just the plastic is a 2x2 flip and not a hard case). Slabbed ancients are currently the domain of Heritage where they peddle overpriced coins to the unsuspecting public (but then again I have also seen them sell coins at prices in which someone obviously lost most of the money they invested in the coin/slab).

So, the market is changing, and not in a direction that I prefer. But I am a bit older now and I wont have to see or deal with how those changes might affect the market in a significant way (maybe, I figure I have 20 years of life left, but could be 40!).

 

We will just have to disagree. Lower end coins are not worth paying $40 to have slabbed and the lower price options are not worth having. Without the strike and surface ratings, the grades are meaningless for ancients. The other companies I have seen are jokes. Lower end coins will be available only at high prices. Currently there is a weak demand for lower end coins. Look at the unsolds from Bing's auctions. Look at the coins I have been trying to sell but have even been refused once when I tried to give some to a young CT poster. It would cost me between $70k and $150k to slab my collection depending on the options. Then I could sell the collection for more? I won't know, I'm older than Ken. If I last another 40 years, I'll be in a really bad mood.

Yes and I am sure that that fact is a lot of what I find offensive unless bulk submittors' coins are graded with only one eye open. Overall, I agree with Ken's view above. When we are gone, you can slab our coins if that is what you require.

 

In the US market, there is still plenty of quality material in the low and middle budget ranges, slabbed or not. Likewise, there are still many coins which have not been slabbed yet. But for higher-end/relatively rare US coins, your claims are absolutely correct. But the same thing has happened to ancients without slabs. How many of us can afford an uncirculated 1796 Dollar? How many of us can afford an FDC Julius Caesar portrait denarius? The sector of the market that would be adversely affected by slabs and elite investors does not affect the majority of us.

 

More than you might think (at least periodically). Hoards change things. Some 20 years ago (I am estimating, I feel it may have been 25) there was a small hoard of JC silver and gold(!). True most were not FDC but many EF aureii were obtainable for about $1,500. I doubt there will be too many such hoards in the future, but one never knows...

 

20-25 years ago, high-end US coins were also much more affordable.