How could PCGS miss this artificial toning here

Your wrong *

*grammar is intentionally wrong, too :-D

 

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I spit out my beef Jerky stick all over my window. That was great!

 

He has me on ignore because he got sick of my questions about some of the stupid stuff he post. He just throws stuff out there to see if anyone will believe it.

 

I could artificially tone a coin to a degree where it isn't a pride parade and get away with it.

I guess if you don't like that coin... pass and let someone else make the mistake of buying what you see to be an AT coin. Let them throw the money away. I'm sure everyone in the world could find someone that doesn't like coins that others like.

Although I'm not much of a toner person - @BlackberryPie has shown himself to pick pretty nice coins. I don't think it makes him a con-man, a fraud, or whatever.

Not defending the eBay seller. I dislike their coins too but many more came back AT than did straight graded... that is enough for me.

That being said- when I clicked this thread I did not expect such a fascinating read.

 

I'll add this one here @cplradar AT or NT?

 

If you artificially tone a coin and submit it in the hopes it gets through a TPG and selling it (at a premium), which is what this ebay deal clearly does, that is 100% fraud every time. That is what this dealer is doing. What BlackberryPie has in his collection is not the topic of this thread, but he can start his own thread if he wants. No legitimate dealer would knowing do this or sell un-described AT coins as original. I stopped caring what BlackberryPie does with coins after he tried to justify this practice and making excuses for this dealer.

 

nice morgan.

 

What I have became a topic when you called me a fraud. Don't attempt to backpedal now when you've been called out by numerous people.
Also, how did I justify what this seller does? I actually haven't even made a mention of that coin. I'll wait for you to quote my justification when you find it. I'll be waiting...

 

that doesn't make it ethical.

 

Pot Kettle.

 

Wow. Just like you submitting a coin twice to have it come back counterfeit twice, only to Crack it out and send it a third time hoping to get the genuine you wanted. Unethical ebay seller meet unethical CT poster.

 

He‘s not off topic. He posted a PCGS certified coin with neon/rainbow toning, asking if the toning was either AT or NT.

Let us look at the subject line again:
„PCGS“ - check
„Artificial toning“ - check

Why don’t you answer his question…? It appears you know a lot about this, so please educate us…

 

What if I place a coin in an album knowing that the coin could tone - because I’m aware it may happen... would this mean I am unethical with my coins? Were the collectors of generations past unethical for cleaning their bust haves (liking them shiny) and allowing them to retone?

not being facetious - very genuine question. Trying to point out how subjective the topic really is.

 

I think there's a clear difference between album toning (either unintentional or intentional), and clearly artificial, quick, and destructive AT (ie gassing, baking, sulfur, etc).

I have a piece of acidic newspaper from the 60s that I've been attempting to tone silver with for the past 8 years. If that ever ends up working, then it would be, I imagine, "artificially-induced natural toning," as oxymoronic as that may sound.

 

I wouldn't call that artificial at all. You'd be placing a coin on paper and letting nature take over. You aren't physically putting chemicals or heating the coin itself.

 

There really is no such thing as AT or NT. There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable.

Intent and process do not matter. You can't tell either of these just looking at the coin. You can only look at the end result. Is the toning acceptable in the marketplace?

 

Sniffer needed.

 

this is what I was getting to

except I wouldn’t have been able to put it as elaborately 99 out of 100 times.

 

That doesn't make the matter subjective. It makes it like everything involving human being, not ABSOLUTE, and there are always edge cases.



btw I doubt our fraudster wants to wait 20 years for album toning to happen

 

People who perpetrate fraud always justify it, and are always prepared to defend it. They will cloud any issue they can, and do their best to change the topic. If you are intentionally artificially toning coins and submiting them, or if you are finding artificially toned coins and submiting them in hopes of getting them slabbed, you are perpetrating fraud on the public.

Intent is what it is all about, but destroying the coin(s) also sucks, and conning the buyer is likely even criminal. So intention is clearly cental to the issue and YES you can most often determine the intention when you look for the evidence in the coin. It is not the only evidence, but it is, without doubt, the most logical place to find evidence, and one can often find a great deal of evidence in the coin. I am pretty sure the foresic labs at the museum can catch forgeries that PCGS would never find. There is almost always a chemical signatures of one sort or the other if enough effort is put into finding it. PCGS is not investing 50K - 200K USD in finding a forgery in $200, nor do they have the equiptment. For them, it is a marketing and legal issue.

If you want to artifully destory coins and sell them as Art, by all means - have fun. To pass that off as natural toning is fraud. There is no other way about it.

This is also, BTW, why pedigree is so important for coins, and all works of art and cultural artifacts. If a coin is wildly toned and appears for all purposes like an artificially toned coin, without pedigree and an extraordinary explanation, one should assume that the coin is indeed artificially toned. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

That would be the ethical way of handling these situations. The more expertise one has in handling toned coins, the easier it is to pick out treated coins. It can take years to learn the basics for well forged, and fraudulent coins. Dealers in artificially toned coins are aware of this, and use ignorance to their advantage. And they do it knowing it is unethical, and probably illegal.