How come this coin sold for so much?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Harry G, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    Hi all! I was browsing the sold lots of the recent Leu auction, and came across this antoninianus of Victorinus. While the coin was quite nice in appearance, it was a very common type, quite off-centre, and pretty typical of the period.

    However, the coin sold for 440CHF + 81.40CHF BP (that's about £411 or $574USD total)!

    How is it this coin sold for so much? Should I be sending in all my common bronzes to Leu (lol)?

    victorinus leu.png
     
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  3. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

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  4. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    The quality of the Victorinus Antoninianus is well above average for this, but I agree with you - the price seems at least strange. Good quality, but badly centered ...
    If you want to send your bronzes to Leu please give me a sign, I have a few I could spare for 200 EUR a piece, if they will have the same success.
     
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  5. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    No doubt. Heh.

    I feel the same about Heritage Auctions at times too.

    I am utterly amazed at some of the hammer prices in recent months.

    I’ve only been involved in the hobby for a little over a year, and I’ve noticed what seems to be an insanely sharp increase in demand and/or prices paid for ancient coins over that short time.

    A 2X to 3X increase in some cases.

    It’s made it sort of difficult to want to compete for coins @ auction, knowing how much they were going for when I first started up.

    It’s kind of a bummer in some ways, because I’ve got a few targets that may have only cost a few hundred(for the condition I’m desiring)...Now they’re commanding closer to a G.

    Perhaps I need to sell some coins @current market rates to be able to justify buying more coins @current market rates.
     
  6. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Supporter! Supporter

    Inexplicable! Rated C6 by AGK... 277 specimens in the Cunetio hoard.
    Probably extremely-fine. The only "variant" for this type is the obverse with the dots: IMP C VICTORINVS·P·F·AVG but judging by the picture it's impossible to confirm this much rarer type.
     
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  7. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    It is not worth half that. I think it is simply panic buying. It is easy to be afraid things are going up so much you need to buy now before prices are out of reach.

    Don't think that ancient coin prices only go up. I am old and participated in the 1979-1980 runup of prices, to my regret. The bubble burst. As they say with stocks, you can't time the market. I can't say this is a bubble. Similarly, I don't think anyone can yet say it is not.
     
  8. rg3

    rg3 Well-Known Member

    I have (luckily) been the underbidder in one Heritage lot where (I assume) several bidders hit the bid button nearly simultaneously at open. They do not seem to employ software with a forced time lapse between bids. My goal was to bid 400 and I ended up bidding something like 1200. I was immediately overbid and the lot closed at that price. I learned a lesson in bid button hitting patience that day. Perhaps this occurs in some of these ultra high bid cases?

    It is probable some firms bid on their own lots and drive the price to a high level (like an undisclosed min). I’ve seen some coins driven high in auction and immediately dropped to a VCoins store as if unsold. This may also be acceptable behavior for consigners - bid up to a personal undisclosed min and only pay the commission if you win the coin back. The latter tactics make me think I’m playing online poker against colluding players (or in an Adam Sandler movie). I guess that is why it’s good to know your personal max for each coin before you bid. Just hope auction houses don’t get on the data mining train and calculate how far each bidder could be pushed based on history and other available metrics. This may be sci fi, or a good reason to use a trusted dealer to bid on your behalf.

    To tell you the truth, I can’t make a judgement on the coins you posted (they are not in my wheelhouse). Just thought I’d throw in my two cents with the acknowledgement that generally prices are attaining levels I have not seen in my short time (5 years) collecting.
     
  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter Basileus Megalos

    I was in the leu auction today and made ten bids - won two lots. There were several cases in which coins priced at 25 chf hammered at over a thousand chf. One I saw went for over 50x the starting bid. A bit cra-cra if you ask me, like gamestop on the stock exchange a couple of weeks back.
     
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  10. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    ... though I gotta say, that is a pretty sweet strike. Comfort purchases.
    Just like we did with toilet paper:
    tenor-23.gif

    One of the first coins I bought in an actual brick and motor store, a few years ago, I paid $25! And felt I'd paid high, but really liked the portrait:
    Screenshot_20200919-191145_PicCollage-removebg-preview.png
     
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  11. jb_depew

    jb_depew Well-Known Member

    I made a huge mistake bidding on a different lot in the same Leu auction. Was literally falling asleep at 1:30 in the morning, thought I was jumping to lot 1625 when I typed the number into the field and hit the blue button, but accidentally submitted that bid on a coin at that number of Swiss francs. I said to myseld "oh well, it will never go that high" and then watched the coin in question climb the next morning from 240 to 1300 CHF. Oops! Maybe everyone else is having the same problem :) Expensive mistake.
     
  12. Sulla80

    Sulla80 one coin at a time Supporter

    A nice $75 coin in my view. I think we need a name for it, perhaps "pandemic brain"? I expect that it will be cured by vaccines. Tulips weren't worth the price they were trading for in AD 1636 (many in the $50,000 - $150,000 range according the Investopedia), but they certainly were pretty...
    upload_2021-2-28_20-11-54.png
    Grote geplumaceerde (The Great Plumed One), and Voorwint (With the Wind)

    I think it is wise advice from @Valentinian: "don't think that ancient coin prices only go up".
     
  13. BenSi

    BenSi Supporter! Supporter

    This was a discussion I was having with someone the other night but came out with a different conclusion. I was a young stamp collector during the late 70's and when inflation started getting under control in 79/80 the prices for stamps in Harris catalog went down significantly. It was a universal price decrease. I am sure it occurred in all of the collectable markets.
    We do not have an increase in inflation yet but it is almost certain to happen here in the states, I believe prices will continue to rise until the inflation is got under control again. It is also an odd mix of many new collectors and less things to spend their money on.

    As for the Leu auction, I participated, I won a few good looking coins but not at a bargain but not a an unfair price either.
    I did see a Aspron trachy get an obscene price, it was a billion issue and I think the bidders confused it with the Electrum version.
    All new collectors have made mistakes ( I did) but hopefully those mistakes will be learned from.
     
  14. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Insane, I like mine better & it was $27.

    vic.jpg
    Victorinus (268 - 271 A.D.)
    Æ(S) Antoninianus
    O: IMP C VICTORINVS P F AVG, radiate draped and cuirassed bust right.
    R: PAX AVG, Pax standing left holding scepter and branch, V in left field, * in right field.
    Treveri (Trier). Struck 269 - 270 A.D.
    3.1g
    20mm
    RIC V 117; AGK 14a; Cohen 83
     
  15. Ignoramus Maximus

    Ignoramus Maximus Well-Known Member

    I participated as well in the auction. 'Participated' perhaps isn't the right word.
    It had me alternatingly calling out in disbelief and rolling over the floor with laughter when I saw the prices some lots fetched. At times it was like watching absurdist theatre.
    Needless to say, I didn't win anything...

    Given the market, I think this is a good moment to save a lot of money by simply not buying anything.

    The other day I was looking at prices fetched by coins just 1-1 1/2 years ago. It felt like looking back at another decade.
     
  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I wish mine were that nice. My only Victorinus Providentia is this DIVO VICTORINO PIO which cost me a lot more than I wish I had paid and small fraction of that lifetime coin. People pay extra for lifetime Alexanders don't they? Maybe that works for Victorinus, too??? :joyful:
    rr1975fd3319.jpg
     
  17. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    This auction was incredibly frustrating. I had a number of RI coins I had 4-5x starting price max bids on and lost them all. The worst part was I knew I’d lose out despite my bids because this market is so irrational. Input them all around 11pm EST and lost them all to last second bids from people on UK time.

    These auction formats are just grossly anti-consumer friendly. By having a timed end versus a standard live auction style end where a lot stays open until all bidding is done, and by hiding what the max bid is, it encourages people to input ridiculous max bid prices for fear they may lose out to the unknown. Additionally noticed a trend that seems to see more people funneling all their $s to one or two coins versus going after many, thereby further jacking up the price.

    I’d be willing to bet what happened here is the bidder input that crazy high figure because they just wanted the coin but figured no way it would actually get to that much. So you input a super high max bid so you know you’ll win cause the coin obviously isn’t worth that much, but you don’t wanna lose out cause your $200 max bid was outdone at the last second by a $220. Unfortunately it seems two people likely attempted this same thing so one guy was left in this extremely unfortunate situation of having to actually pay out. This kind of shenanigans wouldn’t happen in a live auction.

    Somethings got to be done to disrupt this market otherwise prices are going to continue to stay sky high.
     
  18. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    That's a nice coin, but I can think of about a dozen other coins I would rather have for that same price. My goodness.
     
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  19. Choucas

    Choucas Active Member

    I just looked at the results for the coins I collect, totally dumb prices. A Valerian DEO VOLKANO for over 300CHF (not even the scarcer variety)? Another very common Victorinus for almost 200? This one for 440?? A Postumus MONETA for 200? Excuse me?

    No offense to the buyers and underbidders if they are reading this, but I feel like these are people with a lot of money that don't know what they are doing. Most of those are barely worth the buyer's premium and shipping, even if they are nice coins for sure. These prices are totally insane.

    upload_2021-3-1_11-16-53.png

    Here's mine below, I'd say it's in comparable condition (maybe the Leu one has slightly better strike and surfaces, but mine has a full legend). I paid 27€ shipped, a few months ago, and retail (not even an ebay auction or whatever...), that's not even BP on the one above. Totally crazy. And that's not the only one like that.
    PAX AVG V-° (2ème ém.).jpg

    Maybe I'd be wise to grab any common ant in nice condition I can find and consign them to Leu. Lol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  20. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    I am too new in the ancient coins world so perhaps I am mistaking, but on the auctions I watch carefully I sometimes see abnormal things.
    Usually I watch a whole auction and even if I am not interested in certain coins, I like to "guess" the hammer price. In 90% of the cases I am correct or very close. But in some cases I am convinced the correct price is 20-25-30 EUR (bases on previous auctions) and the coin jumps to 80-100.
    What amazes me is the kind of situation where the same type of coin (same denomination, similar conservation) appears 2-3 times in the same auction.
    On one of them there's a big fight, then on the second, that would have the same appeal for the collector who wants it (and who lost the previous one) the price is much smaller.
    Beats me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  21. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Your DIVO VICTORINO PIO is a lot rarer and more desirable than the common type at the start of the threat.

    I guess what happened is that the high bidder put in a "crazy bid" to make sure he gets the coin, never expecting that somebody else was doing the same thing.

    In general, Leu tends to have very low starting bids, which often entices people into bidding wars. In this case, I think the estimate of CHF 25 was not even very low though. I think with a bit of pacience a comparable coin can be found on Ebay for 40 to 60 dollars.
     
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