Hotel buyers gone wild! Long story inside

If there is one thing I love about this site it is that we can speak freely! I recently was giving the opportunity to secret shop the hotel coin buyers.Keep in mind I am young and have plenty of tattoos, but my knowledge in coins is tremendous. I went in and I was greeted very politely. They set me up with a lady. First thing I thought was dang it! I wanted the person giving me the appraisal to be a man. Wait, I am sorry they dont give appraisals they just make offers. ( We will get to this later )
So any ways I procede. I start to pull the coins out of my plastic meijers bag (I was really playing the part! :yes: ) As I am pulling them out I say something along the lines of " My grandpa didn't take very good care of these coins as you can see they have patina all over them" She replies " Yes that is definitely going to take away from the value" I reply " So do you think I should try cleaning them really quick?" Abruptly she replies "NO!" As most of you probably know the coins I am handing here are all absolute monsters! So I continue pulling them out of the bag trying not to laugh and I get to four of my rainbow toned gold coins all of which are PCGS slabbed. As I pull them out I say something along the lines of " I dont even know if these are real gold....they look strange" she replies " Nope, nope those are no different than the president dollars." Me with a confused look on my face "President dollars? her" Have you ever seen the sacajewas dollars? Me "yes" Her "These are the same exact thing" Me " Oh, dang it!" Once again I am trying hard not to crack a smile or laugh. Then I grab a page of raw coins out and let her know that was all I brought. So at this moment she has on her table:
PCGS PR69 DCAM Madison Gold $5 Toned
PCGS PR69 DCAM 1988 Olympic Gold $5 Toned
PCGS PR69 DCAM Bill of Rights Gold $5 Toned
PCGS MS64 1908 Saint Gaudens Gold $20 Toned
PCGS MS66 1964 Kennedy Monster Toned (I paid over $500)
PCGS MS65 1937 Buffalo Nickel Radioactive Toning
NGC MS66+ 1936S Oregon Trail Toned
NGC MS66 1938D Buffalo Nickel Toned
NGC MS64 1913 Buffalo Nickel Radioactive toning
NGC MS64 1944 Walking Liberty Half Dollar Gorgeous Toning
Than some raw coins that I will conservatively grade
MS64 1925 Peace Dollar Unbeleivable Toning!
MS62 1925 Peace Dollar Unbeleivable Toning!
MS64 1913 Buffalo Nickel Outrageous Toning!
MS67FB 1942D Mercury Dime! Very nice Toning!
MS65 1926 Oregon Trail Half Dollar. Maybe the nicest toned Oregon I ever seen!
MS66 1941 Jefferson Nickel RADIOACTIVE TONING X10

So she fiddles with them a bit and than says "ninety dollars". Yeap, girl didnt even blink an eye! Now, I knew I was going to get lowballed and yes I am guilty of putting a lot of bait out there with my "lack of knowledge" but $90????? You guys have no idea how hard it was for me to not smile or laugh!I kind of stare at them and she says " what are you trying to do?" followed by "are you trying to catch up on bills?" I reply " Yes I need to catch up before I lose my car" She replies " Well how much do you need?" I say " Like $200" ( Inside im ROFLMAO) So she calls over her "boss". He comes over and the first thing she says is " He got these from his grandpa so I am trying to help him get the best price." Translation: This is a young punk that has no clue he has thousands of dollars worth of coins on our table so lets take him to the cleaners. He looks at me and says "hi how are ya?" I hold up one of the "fake" gold pieces and say " Id be better if I found out these were real." He says " Yea, if those were real we would have giving $4-500 a piece!" Okay I gotta tell ya that at this point I am having just way to much fun toying with them and now that I see that two of them are in on this mess I feel I have confirmed that this operation is 100% Fraud. So while they are typing messages back and forth.........I mean trying to get me the best price I pull out my ANA PCGS and NGC Membership cards place them right in front of me and start packing my coins back into my Meijers bag. They look up from the computer and say "what are you doing?" I looked at them and said I will be honest with you, I was just $%^ing with you." Then I stand up and very loudly begin yelling at them both. Basically, I wanted to make sure that everybody in the room knew these folks were a scam. The was a few middle aged women to my right that had gold so I made sure they knew my gold was 100% real and I was being told it was fake. I wasn't really mad at them, after all this was the most fun I had in a while but I wanted to alert the folks that were potentially selling. So any who a guy walks up behind me and says "your not scary". Wait one doesnt suffice here we need like three of those faces Lets just say we had words and those turned into them insulting me which turned into me promising to make sure they never step foot in my town again which led to them laughing at me and informing me that they are a 300 million dollar operation....... So I am in the parking lot on my way to my car and I see two old ladies walking up. They have large bags in there hands and they asked what door to go in? No sooner than I go to talk three guys are running out telling me to get to my car!!! Go now before I call the police! ETC ETC I inform them that calling the police will not do anything but decide that I was rather heated and the best bet was to get in my ride and leave. So as I am leaving he yells " You drive a saturn vue and think you can take us down?"....:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: That comment right there just stoked my fire! This is a fire that wont go out until I stop them from entering the city I live in ever again. BUt before I take the legal action I am going to spend all day friday in the parking lot handing out price guides. Why hand out price guides???? Well here is a direct quote from the 300 million dollar man himself
“We deal in used merchandise,” he said. “We don’t appraise. We tell people what we’re going to pay. It boils down to what a person will sell something for and what we’re willing to pay for it.You can prepare yourself with knowledge about an item if you want to.”

Ill make sure to snap some photos of me handing out my price guides!:thumb:

 

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these same folks show up in my town. anytime someone says they may go down and sell some coins the advice is don't, just a sham.
it may be legal yet it really lacks moral fiber

 

Its not legal and they are constantly in court.I was under the same understanding as you until I did my homework. Here are some quotes from actual newspapers so you know that I am not just being biased.

“We were growing in a frenzy and weren’t set up the way we should have been with our vendors,” he said. “One of the companies we did business with deposited a $750,000 check in our account last March, and its check bounced.”

As a result, TRH bounced about 140 checks, which Parsons said the company quickly repaid.

"THR also ran afoul of the Better Business Bureau for using their Accredited” logo on their website without permission or license."

"They were also criticized by the BBB for running faux-newspaper articles without noting they were “paid advertisements”.

"The president of THR admitted that 45 checks from a Michigan show bounced in a story WREG in Memphis completed in September 2009, but that’s the only time it’s happened he says.
Not so, Mr. President. News reports in the twelve months prior to that, according to WREG, have shown lots of THR checks have bounced in seven cities. Company representatives have had a handful of excuses, usually claiming accounting mix-ups"

"Questionable business practices, bad checks and trademark infringement seem to be but a few problems that follow THR’s Treasure Hunter’s Roadshow."

I can cite the sources if you would like. I was under the impression that these folks ripped people off but didn't realize that it was this shady and downright thuggish.

 

Screw those people. Seriously.

 

begs the question
what can we as a community do?
sign me up

 

and what is readioactive toning btw? new to all of this

 

Good story. I got a little scared at the end. Definitely gotta get a second opinion from a trusted expert when you're new to the hobby. Unfortunately the ones that need to hear this story aren't on this forum.

 

Radioactive toning looks like this..This is the 1937 Nickel I used today

 

wow that is cool
very cool

 

Great Story. Unfortunately the world is full of sheisters like these.

The best way to arm yourself against them is education.

 

These people came to my city sometime last year to do the same thing that the OP was talking about. The only reason that I knew about it because it was advertised on the radio that I was listening to at work at the time. I have never been to one of these TRH events and I do not plan to go to one. Why would I? If I had some gold and silver collectibles that I did not want to keep any more, then I would either 1.) Sell to a local coin shop or 2.) Put it on ebay if it is a gold or silver piece that I can fetch a higher premium than what the local coin dealer could give me.

I heard about the bad things about TRH and other people who set up in hotels to rip people off. They seem to be no better than the local pawn shops in my area IMO.

Like Racebannon said, the best way to defend yourself against people like TRH is to educate yourself about what you have. Know what you own. There is a lot of information that is available with coin books that can be bought from a book store or a coin show and there is a lot of information on the internet for free than can be used to educate yourself. DYODD is the key here and that will save you from getting ripped off from people like TRH and other people who go to different towns to set up in hotels to rip people off.

 

Very sobering and disheartening story.
I'm glad you posted it. I can't imagine a reputable hotel would let that happen
.
Lucy

 

Pretty cool story, Dime. It's too bad you weren't wearing a wire and made arrangements with a local tv station to have an investigative reporter and cameraman available.

Chris

 

One thing you can do is go to the local sheriff or police and volunteer to participate in a sting. I did as a kid. These people hold themselves out as experts, so it is not legal for them to lie as to coin values.

What I did was went with a bunch of old silver dollars, one of which was a 94s. I was told to get them to tell me that what their offer was is all they were worth. I went in and they gave me an offer after looking at them. They offered $5 a piece back when silver was $26 an ounce. I himmed and hawed, saying I thought they were worth more than that. They replied that was their offer. I picked up a couple, saying "come on, this one is 1880, and this one is 1894, they surely must be worth more than that", (i picked up the 94s but wasn't trying to emphasize it too much". The main guy just replied, "that is our offer", I think maybe he knew the game.

Luckily, I dawdled some more, and a younger guy came over and told me, "hey kid, that is all these are worth, and we are giving you a good deal". That made me smile, I went outside and signalled the sheriffs outside. They were all arrested and had to make bond a little while later.

It is not legal what these people do, but at least in Iowa what was critical was to get them to tell you that they are paying what they are worth, meaning that since they were "experts" they were not allowed to cheat the public. If they just tell you that is their offer, they are not giving their expert opinion as to their worth, so any offer is legal since it is not giving you their expert opinion.

Anyway, that was my experience the last time these thieves went around to steal from the public.

Chris

Edit: Btw, in case you were wondering how I had a 94s, the sheriffs happen to come in to my favorite coin shop one day, and the dealer agreed to supply all of the morgans for the sting, and since I was there they asked me if I would like to help them. My Mom was in the car outside the hotel room as well, nervous as ****! I think that is the only time I got to freely handle a 94s, and was trying to be careful with it the whole time, though it was only a F. I think the dealer had thrown in a 89cc and a couple of other cc's in there as well.

 

Great read; and very well told. If all of this happened within a couple hours, can you imagine the volume of swindling these guys do year around in different cities? The thought of all those people being taken advantage of is sickening.

-LTB

 

It's a shame these sharks are out there swindling people.

 

Awesome replies! Im glad you guys see things the way I do! As far as me running a police lead sting, it would be utterly impossible in my city.Saginaw is one of the most dangerous cities per capita and they simply could care less. I went to the news and they basically were under the impression that I went thinking I had some really nice coins and the folks that traveled in town had to break the ban news to me. The news asked if I had second opinions on their values? How do you know there worth that much? So this traveling scam has got many fooled! I will however say that they frequent Manistee Michigan often and I am working with Manistee right now. Manistee is a quiet town that doesn't want this type of rift raft. Its also a old developing town which is like a honey whole for the travel fraud. Experts have told me that these folks take a great amount of preparation. For instance, Saginaw (where I live) has a rich history and was deveolping at a record pace when the auto industry was booming. Recently, all of the auto industry plants in this town have either shutdown or lost there unions. This has made this town a target because there are plenty of valuables that were purchased in its hay day but might be available for sale today due to the harsh economics times that have recently struck the city. Another example is they will send many more African American "Apprasiers" to this town because there are plenty of African Americans in this town and the company believes that they will be more willing to sell to an African American than a white. One last horrible tid bit for right now. The company policy for employing there coin appraisers is that the applicant does not have any prior experience. They feel that prior experience might be include misinformation which might be hard to break. Translation: They dont want Numasist on there staff because they can teach them how to rob people unknowingly. I strongly believe there girl that gave me an offer had no clue she was lowballing me. She was a early twenties something that was quite attractive. She tried opening the slabs and other things that made be believe that she had no clue about coins.

If your unemployed they are hiring for all of there companies.......Yeap, there are a bunch of different sister companies. Some buy war items, some buy old toys, some buy paintings, some by coins, some buy antiques.......basically, if its collected they buy it! They are all owned and operated by THR Associates......You can apply here-----------> http://www.thrassociates.com/careers2

 

A job qualification is to have no qualifications...wow...just wow...

I'm sure this helps them exploit the law through a loophole. As didn't I see someone post that it is illegal for an "expert" to convince the buyer that their offer is a good deal? This way, if they get busted, not only are these people not experts and have no knowledge if the offer is a good deal or not, but they simply say a price is what they're offering and make no mention of whether the offer is fair or a good deal.

The employees are probably instructed to offer differing multiples of face value based on metal content...like 8x face for gold, 3x for silver, etc. And if any offer is declined, they call over their manager whom is a coin expert, to see how much more (or little) they will offer based on true numismatic value.

The best plan of attack would be to go undercover and get a job with these crooks to uncover the scam that they're running.

-LTB

 

i know you went there just to have fun with them but i wouldnt waste my time being insulted to do the same thing back no matter how crooked they are.

 

Kudos to you! These thieves come to town here twice a year. They take out a 2-4 page newspaper ad offering "up to" mega dollars for this and that. Usually they picture and solicit WW2 items, gold and silver coins, Rolex watches, diamond rings, etc. Usually they're in town for a two day event. When you consider their travel costs, hotel rental for overnight accomodations and banquet room rent plus employee wages, it's sobering to realize that they're still making monstrous profits from the gullibility of people who sadly don't know any better.

Unfortunately there's nothing much that can be done unless you get cooperation from the police, who aren't inclined to do much unless an actual crime is being committed. You can do your own voice recording of a transaction, but then it's you that are in violation of the (wiretap) laws. You could stand out in the parking lot and warn patrons, but you would certainly be threatened (successfully) with prosecution for trespass. The newspapers aren't interested in an investigation since they're getting tens of thousands of dollars in advertising from these people. I'm not sure the hotel would allow a TV crew and satellite truck to interfere since they (the hotel) are getting thousands of dollars in revenue from the crooks.

fraud/frôd/Noun
1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Are they practicing fraud? Yes. The trick is to convince the police that they are. and then to actually do something about it.