Holy .... NGC just took PCGS behind the woodshed!

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At some point in time you won't see many raw submissions of certain rarer dates or high end older coins since most will have been sent in and slabbed. The only way for the TPGs to survive will be to loosen grading standards to keep submissions coming in (at least for non-modern coins).

 

In that article/post it says: "As a matter of fact many dealers deliberately buy NGC coins and cross them to PCGS at a lower grade, subsequently selling them at a profit."

A lot here buy and sell coins, do you find that to be even remotely close to true? He's not even saying they cross to the same grade then profit, he's suggesting they cross to PCGS, get a grade lower, pay all the grading fees, and still profit.

That whole exchange (not sure if just the two articles or if there was more after) comes across as a "my dad can beat up your dad" schoolyard argument.

 

Easily. The coins were properly graded prior to 2004 by the standards in use at that time. They were graded properly again a point (or more) higher when resubmitted according to the grading standards in place today.

Floating grading standards have nothing to do with accuracy as long as they are properly applied at the time that the coins are graded.

 

Both companies would appear to be flourishing too (consistent 20+ day turnarounds would suggest demand is pretty high), I guess it's too much to ask to just leave well enough alone though.

I knew NGC came right after PCGS, had no clue it was former PCGS employees who started it. I say good for them, they realized the opportunity and jumped at it.

 

The standards change because TPGs don't grade coins; they price them based on where they fall compared to other coins from the same date/mm they have seen.

In other words, if a coin comes in today which is obviously worth more than the MS-65 that they saw last week then it MUST be a 66. I don't like it...you don't like it...but the large dealers (who are their best customers) do like it.

 

Both companies are guilty of grade inflation , though I used to prefer PCGS , now I can grade well enough to buy the coin not the slab . I brought out some coins I haven't looked at in awhile and it seems a lot of the newer blue white PCGS coins are over graded . I really go over any PCGS coins in the newer holders , but in reality everyone should look at slabbed coins like they were raw ! Buy the coin not the holder !!!

 

I agree some people have better rates than others and some can have very good rates with the best probably around 90-95% but that still means there will be differences on some. Humans are just incapable of perfection at anything. If we took 200 coins and had someone grade them, then mixed them in with several sound coins over a couple months I can guarantee not all 200 will have the exact same grades. Even if we just held them back for two years than had the same person do it again some would change especially with MS coins mixed in the group.

It's not even a knock on anyone, it is just the nature of human driven processes especially one that is subjective like grading and not an exact science. Too often we treat grading like a science with right and wrong answers when it's not unless someone is just way off in left field with their grades.

It would be impossible for me to answer that question given that I think the 90% number is a gross exaggeration. Over 10 percent of pre 2004 PCGS and NGC slabs still exist as well. The population reports aren't evidence either as far to many coins reside in both or multiple times to be anything more than a general reference.

Only the internet makes the crackout game seem like a given, it's much harder to be successful consistency than forums make it sound.

 

Yes it does happen far more than people realize. A lot of Newman coins were crossed from NGC to PCGS after that auction. The coin from this thread (which is stunning) https://www.cointalk.com/threads/forget-the-10-million-coin.294140/ was initially in an NGC holder.

A likely reason for NGCs initial attack was that they are painfully aware they are losing a not insignificant percentage of their best coins to PCGS. There was a coin world article from a dealer shortly after the PCGS response that briefly mentioned how many times he had seen coins being crossed from NGC to them. If I can ever find it I'll link it

 

You just gave koolaid a bad name

 

You mean the pictures that basically hid everything back then? Most of their pictures could still use some work today but they are light years ahead of where they were back then in terms of accuracy. You could re-image all of those coins from then as they are today and more flaws will be apparent. Coins aren't definitely graded by pictures anyway

Forum length has nothing to do with anything.

I am very well aware of it. Are you aware of why they make the big bucks?
Because of how hard their job is. Your descriptions make it sound like an idiot can blindly pick up pre 2004 slab and it will work. If anyone doesn't believe me that the upgrade rate has been no where near what you are stating they are free to find out for themselves the hard way.

The only koolaid happening would be the anti TPG koolaid with insane upgrade statements like over 90 percent.

 

So your premise is that coins should be definitely graded by photographs while ignoring the massive technological advances since that really was not a response?

 

If you think you can look at a picture and say 100 percent what it's grade is you don't understand modern technology. Is your premise that a certain ebay sellers pics that have been subjects of many treads are spot on? If they aren't then you have to admit that photos can't be definitive.

Then of course there was the MS 66 segs gold coin you gave your Doug sticker to that was regraded a 64 when resubmitted.

There is no shame in not understanding technology advances and why a lot of things look they way they do from how much digital processing has advanced. Basing your 90 percent numbers off internet pictures without understanding digital advances though is reckless. People are going to read that and think you are infallible and waste a lot of money because you are giving them the impression upgrades are automatic.

 

The dead horse is now glue.