Featured History Checklist: The Ancient World in 200 coins

Never fear, TIF... I cheated by using my want list spreadsheet (a bunch of more comprehensive lists developed over a long time!), plus some historical atlases and The Coin Atlas. This is definitely not something I could do off the top of my head!

Am I forgiven for including so few Roman provincials?

 

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Of course!! It's best to leave most of them off the list. In fact, it's best for everyone to just ignore them altogether, especially coins of Roman Egypt and Asia Minor.



I've got some new doozies to share, hopefully tomorrow

In all seriousness though, while I love provincials, in the interest of keeping the historicus maximus ancient coin set list to low-ish number, I can't quibble with the number you've chosen. They're just a drop in the bucket of the ancient coin spectrum. I'll have to get back to you on the specifics though.

 

If that's the post I think it is, pay attention everyone! It will be one of TIF's best ever posts.. and as you know, that's really saying something!!

I'm glad I didn't mess up on the provincials, at least at first glance. If I'm missing any highly populous and important cities that issued coins, please let me know!

Oh, never mind... there aren't any such cities. I'll erase the others. Move along, folks, move along...

 

This is what I meant by a pointed knife:

@AnYangMan

To my knowledge, there are no coins that can be specifically attributed to pre-510 Northern Wei. That does not mean no coins were pruduced, but any coins made are likely impossible to differentiate from those of other periods.

 

OK, thanks! I'll specify that the Yan knife should be a pointed knife.

 

If you are going to 600 i would add at least one byzantine, maybe Anastasius or Justinian. That's a large and important empire missing.

 

You put a lot of effort and info into this for sure. I will ask if you weighed in the future impact politically and historically of the peoples represented on the list? Since the list is not as you say based on numismatic history in a major way. You said it is based on "The list aims to be historically comprehensive, not numismatically comprehensive; and it focuses on political and military history, not cultural or social." I would think that separating political/military from socio-cultural and religious history is quite difficult. Since you did mention in the intro that you have only one Judaean type and that is an area of interest of mine we could focus on that as an example. With the vast future historical impact of the Judaean people on all of future Roman history and the rest of global world history why would you not have a type of say the revolt coins like the Masada prutahs? That was military and political history with enormous consequences for many people. The whole idea of freedom and sovereignty issues comes into play.In contrast you included six Parthians and five Sassanian coin types. What kind of future impact did these I believe now extinct nations have on future history? Or maybe again that does not figure into your equation? I have very little historical knowledge on many of the peoples represented so I am including this example just to maybe help hone the basic principle and criteria of the list. You have asked for criticism so as to help improve the study. Doug mentioned our congress in his response. So yes we have a senate and our republican government is from ancient Rome. We have democratic values from Greece and military and political wisdom from China and many other nations. So it does appear that the future impact of many of these peoples has a big value on the list just by how they have influenced the history of the west and our modern world. Just some things to think about.

 

That’s an incredible and comprehensive list, Sev. It demands more thought than I have time (or knowledge) for right now, but off the top of my head I’d include Corinth in the 500-400 BCE period and at least one representative of provinces/territories under pre-Imperial Roman rule (Pergamum/Macedon/Illyria). Your lists of emperors and provincial cities are also interesting and ought to spark plenty of discussion!

 

Don’t bother moving it up to 600AD - we can do a second list of important Medieval coins

 

Will do! Assuming I decide to go to 600 on the Sassanids... I think I prob'ly will.

Corinth almost made it into that 5th c. BCE group... I think you're right, it was a mistake to leave it out. You're also right about the pre-Imperial provincial territories. Pergamum is there already, and I can specify the 168 BCE coin should be a Macedonian issue (so not adding to the total). Do you think Illyria is significant enough? what about Sicily? and Bithynia, Asia, Syria, and/or Cilicia in the 1st c. BCE? I'm inclined to add Sicily and "choose one" of the Asian provinces organized by Pompey.

I'm up for it! PM me and we can get started.

 

Thanks for the very helpful comments, Mike! You've put your finger on a major issue I faced in compiling the list, one I know I didn't resolve to anyone's satisfaction, including my own. I did make a conscious decision to emphasize contemporary impact rather than future impact, so that explains the paucity of Judaean representation. Although maybe I should still include a revolt issue. I guess I'm unsure how impactful these revolts really were at the time. Just because the Flavians pump it up on the coins doesn't mean that particular revolt was a huge deal on a wider political scale. Convince me!

BTW, I'd say the Sassanids had an enormous impact, both on the history of Iran and the history of Islam as a whole. Many Sassanian traditions were adopted by the Islamic powers in that area and carried forward, with impacts to the present day. (The Parthians not so much, though. )

 

Sevvy, there's a downside to what you're doing. If you come up with a definitive set, then the next thing you know modern collectors will start insisting on slabs of these coins so they can complete their registry sets. We'll have to compete with those collectors accustomed to paying exorbitant sums for entombed carbon copy coins.

Kidding (sort of). I think trying to compose a thoughtful list is a wonderful exercise!

 

I guess it’s a tough call, but Apollonia and Dyrrhachium were under Roman control from the late 3rd century BCE and both were large and important as gateways to Greece. I like the idea of adding Sicily and an Asian province, but I guess none of this helps with cutting down the number of coins on the list .

 

I am not looking to convince you Sevy but it is a good discourse to have. The contemporary effect of both Jewish revolts was enormous. First it insured what is called the Jewish Diaspora. So by sending the Jews all around the world it guaranteed their survival into our present times(along with continued persecution) and this had profound religious significance but beyond the parameters of this discussion. Some Jewish historians believe that if the Jews had remained in Judaea they could have been fully wiped out a few centuries later by the physical and early on unrelenting "sword of Islam". The second great impact was that it helped cause the complete conversion of the entire Roman empire from what was just a little "upstart branch of Judaism" which is being celebrated this very day by maybe? two billion or so folks. There is a fundamental principle that may be seen repeated throughout history. When a vast conquering power attempts to subdue and or eliminate a small divergent people within it's boundaries in just a couple of centuries the religious practices of the subdued people spread to the entire population. Just look at how Native American religious practice has spread throughout America(beads and long hair and sweat lodge ceremonies) after a vast attempt to remove them and their culture in "manifest destiny". A third big contemporary impact was that it proved to all the other divergent provinces of the Roman empire that it was possible if not at first anyway to challenge the vast power of the legions( ie Masada) and win at least to some extent. They could be challenged(if not fully defeated physically) with enough courage and determination. And the valiant attempts won admiration from even future Roman emperors and their families(Nero,Nerva,A.Pius,M.Aurelius and Caracalla according to the Talmud)) as we see the history unfold. The fourth huge contemporary impact was that it proved that a people could achieve a continued religious/cultural freedom even if they lost their homeland and their political sovereignty. The fifth great impact of the revolts was on the history of numismatics itself. The use of coinage itself as a political resistance and proclamation of sovereignty and personal freedom was raised to great heights.

 

I had better say that the above list is © Severus Alexander 2018. Terms of use: no slabbers or admirers of slabs may reproduce, use, refer to, view, think about, or contemplate thinking about the list or any reasonable or unreasonable facsimile thereof. So there!!

Well, OK, Barry can, he's a good CT citizen. But I'm not gonna tag him.

 

@zumbly and @Mike Margolis: I will be making some changes when I get time later today (when does the edit button disappear?!? I'm nervous about that...)

 

If the edit button disappears, just ask a moderator to put it back for a while. On occasion I've edited very old posts that way.

 

The fact I know nothing about Ancients, this makes my head hurt. But great discussion

 

OK, I've made the (final?) edits. The list now stands at 200 coins exactly. I added a few things which brought it to 202, so I trimmed Aksum down to 1, and merged the Alchon and Nezak Huns.

@zumbly: Check out the revised Roman Provincial section.

@Mike Margolis: I'm not sure I buy all of your arguments, but I'm sufficiently persuaded that I doubled the representation of Judaea!

Other edits:
-- brought both the Sassanids and the Roman/Byzantines up to 600 CE, and added 3 successor states to the Western empire.
-- added the Gökturks in, though it's a bit tricky to nail down which coins they're responsible for.
-- more careful specification of some of the Chinese issues, also added the early spades issued in inner Mongolia to get some representation of the hugely important steppe tribes there
-- revised and added the East Asia content (I could feel @Ancientnoob breathing down my neck!)

I'm still open to further suggestions... and now that it's a featured post, probably would be good to have a few coins below too. Post some stuff you have from the list!

 

This would be a really impressive set when complete. I for one would like to see one done - even though many of the coins are outside my scope of interest, the histories of the issuers aren’t. You have one of the most diverse and wide-ranging collections I know of here... out of curiosity, how much of this set do you have covered already?