Here's an error for ya!!

Give me a break!! Anyone can say anything they want , but the coin has been graded by pcgs and has found to be a real error. I purchased this coin from a VERY reputable dealer and I'll assure you it's real. There are a handful of these I've found "From My Research" and even less graded "From My Research" and yes I has seen the coins "fondinrolls" has linked and that's fine, but who says they're real ? By what standard are we going to go by? I guess a guy can say their all fake!! Lets do that. But I'll put my money on the pcgs findings......DEX

 

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I find his response to the coin also rude & unnecessary. Lets get it right with the facts.

 

One final observation and then I'm done with this fake

This is rude and unnecessary.

 

I can't make heads or tails of your reply , maybe you can clear it up for me.

where you mentioned the member FOUNDINROLS and said (who is very well-educated in varieties and errors) are you saying this member is very well educated in varietys and errors or are you trying to say this is what I said. I was not trying to offend anyone and don't see where I said anything wrong , I just said my opinion which everyone is supposed to be entitled to.

 

I guess I should have responded this way....

 

that's one of my problems also.

 

I am saying that the user foundinrolls is known in the hobby to be well-versed in varieties and errors.

 

well thanks for clearing this up for me . I don't make it my job to learn the members real names so I don't know who very many of them are . all I was trying to say was that I could tell from his or her posts that I thought this member knew something about error coins from what the members replys were.

 

Ok, lets stop this here. Coin Dexter, I am not saying that the coin is real or not, nor if it was generated as you ( and PCGS) says it was. That is not the issue with me. It is obviously " Market acceptable" as we refer to the toning issue as PCGS slabbed it such.

But the motto of the forum is " Trash the coin but not the person" meaning anyone can give an opinion on a coin without fearing an attack on themselves. We want to keep it that way. So even if someone disagrees with you and/or PCGS, they have that right. If you disagree, you can certainly say that and why, just leave the personalities out of it. I will let this thread go a little more and close it if that principle is violated. Remember almost every one on the thread is going by photos.
Jim

 

My apologizes. I was outta line. I'm sorry....DEX

 

I'll leave ya with this. Have fun with it. It's my opinion....DEX

 

Actually if you look at the coin Foundinrolls posted in post #15 and the Heritage one I linked to in post #27 they appear to be the same coin. So really, it's only one other example.
So we have one in a PCGS Secure Plus slab and one in an NGC edge view slab. Doesen't it seems a little farfetched that the two major TPG's were both recently fooled by the same counterfeiter?

 

d.t. in a lot of cases it is the error coin experts that attributes a error coin then the owner of the coin sends it in to one of the TPG's with the attribution papers and the coin is slabbed. I believe that in some cases the error expert should get the blame instead of the TPG company.

 

I see no obvious signs of fakery in this double-struck, Type I, 1913 buffalo nickel. When a second strike is slightly weaker than normal, you get an appearance similar to this. It can be hard to distinguish the first strike from the second strike. E PLURIBUS UNUM is poorly defined in this issue, as seen in this normal specimen:

http://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/3131/09490510/1913_Buffalo_Type1_MS66_PCGS_9490510.jpg

Still, I would recommend careful study under a microscope with a normal 1913 nickel on hand for comparison.

 

Mike I trust your opinion on error coins , when it comes to where it is hard to distinguish the first strike from the second strike I always become suspicious of the doublestruck coins that have this type of appearance. they look more like a doubled die than a double strike coin. I had a beautiful state quarter like the ones that once sold on ebay that had what looked like four or five in collar strikes with the details from each strike showing one over the others and Mr Weinberg informed me it was made with homemade dies. a few of these were on ebay each week and ebay stopped the sellers.

I see that you appear to be a little suspicious of the coin in this thread , I wonder what Mr Weinberg would think of this one if someone sent him a photo of it. the fake coins being made do you believe real mint planchets are used or do the counterfeiters use a fake die over the original coins?

I have been studying some of the different altered coins to see how they are altered. some of them are easy to understand and some are about impossible for me to figure out how they were done.

 

Thanks for giving your opinion Mike.

Jim

 

Please allow me to respond to some of what I've seen added to this thread.

To start with, I have been a regular, monthly or twice-monthly, featured columnist for CoinWorld Magazine since 1999. I am an expert on the minting process with particular emphasis in the error and die variety fields. I have many "discovery coins" to my credit. I understand what can and can't happen at the Mint. I've toured the Mint floor several times and I've seen every step of the minting process.

I've also contributed to the ANA's "Numismatist" on a fairly regular basis for the past three years or so.

In order to have an understanding of the creation of error coins, you have to understand the minting process. Everything stated in any of my above posts is fact and not guesswork.

In the first place, your coin, even if it stood alone cries fake. Once you find a second one that is essentially identical, the odds that the coin is real is raised into the one in many millions category. When you find three of them that are essentially identical you reach statistical impossibilities. Taking a date off a fake die in order to create a 1913 replica fake is an easy task for a counterfeiter of dies.

The reason is that each time you discover a doubled struck coin, it is a unique and very individual piece. Each and every double struck coin has its own characteristics and each double struck coin is different from any other double struck coin just by the nature of mint production. For one double struck coin to be struck and then another separate double struck coin to be struck that exhibits the identical details means that a random and unique situation has to repeat itself exactly. With double struck coins, that doesn't happen. Now add the same details to a coin that is from a different year (1913) and you have complete proof that all three coins are fake. All three coins were struck by the same bogus die or dies made by the same forger.

As for PCGS, I have seen at least two incorrectly slabbed errors at every coin show that I've attended. At a show this past spring, a representative of a grading company called over two experts to examine a PCGS slab. One expert is a major seller of die varieties and genuine errors and I was the second expert. The coin in the PCGS slab was marked as a 1999 Lincoln cent Rotated Die Error. The coin in the slab had a seam around the reverse rim that was so obvious anyone could see it. This "error" was made from two coins. The Grading company representative had two separate opinions as to the fact that the coin was another fake in a PCGS slab. My opinion as well as the opinion of another expert. How did PCGS miss this obvious fake? Well they miss a good number of counterfeit errors.

On the other side of the coin, I've helped several people who had sent coins to PCGS as Cherrypicker's Guide Die Varieties only to have them returned with a notation that the coins were not die varieties. I advised the collectors to send it back with a notation that I said the coin was indeed the die variety and that it should have been slabbed., We noted the page number in the CPG that listed the coin.

Another was a rotated die Kennedy half that was returned as man-made but was in fact a true rotated die error. It was sent back in again and it graded.

So, PCGS slabs fakes, and they return coins that are listed die varieties pretty often. They have the problem with errors.

A column in a recent edition of CW written by another acknowledged error expert listed 10 or more reasons why a coin that had been slabbed as an error was nothing more than a weird garage made fantasy.

I understand errors and die varieties better than many graders for the major grading companies and the number of machine doubled coins that I've seen in slabs would knock your socks off. The numbers of mislabeled error coins that I've seen in slabs would surprise you. And..It's not just my opinion. Other Error experts see it all the time.

Finally, the Chinese have taken to making counterfeit error coins and die varieties. They put them in phony slabs and they are smart enough to check the grading company websites to match the descriptions of their "errors" to errors listed on the grading companies websites.

Whether your coin is slabbed or not, it is a fake and any error expert after seeing the evidence of three like obverses and reverses would say the same.

In 1964, Supposed double struck Lincoln cents were all the rage. Somebody made several hundred of them. They were much like your nickel in having too much raised detail of the two strikes. That is one of the major dead giveaways of a counterfeit double struck coin.

You can "laugh" or you can learn. I'm sorry that you purchased the coin without an understanding of double struck errors. I use these forums as a place to teach others what to watch out for. I DO Not just spout off. I post reasoned opinions based upon facts and knowledge.

 

Just for reference purposes, you can see a very weak second strike that followed a normal first strike here:

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/in-double-strikes-preservation-of-first-strik

Please be aware that photo caption is wrong. The second strike is obliquely oriented in the photo.

 

Hi Mike,

Of course that does happen and you posted a great example of it. I don't know if you saw the original images which I think were taken down. In the case of this coin, there were three identical "errors" two dated 1924 and a third dateless example with a bison-on-mound reverse indicating a 1913 dated piece.

The cent you linked to would be pretty unusual if another identical coin was found and then another identical coin with a different date was also found.

Have Fun,
Bill

 

I wish I could see the coin in question. the pics are gone! I can however do this.. I have a lot of respect for both Bill (foundinrolls) and Mike Diamond. Now with that being said. I recently seen a coin in a top tier slab.. and the Mintmark was floating around in the bottom of the holder.. Thats all I can share at this point about it however. BUT.. rest assured that the top dogs in the grading world do MISS errors and varieties and yes even fakes or altered coins.