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Message:: [QUOTE="GoldFinger1969, post: 8154463, member: 73489"]OK, I finally read the entire 35-page CU thread on The Mafia & The Omegas....my thoughts: (1)  I find it hard to believe that Organized Crime (OC) would want to make counterfeit coins of any type, even a pricey one like the Omega High Reliefs (which probably cost about $1,000 - $3,000 at the time they were made/sold).  It's just not how OC operates....trying to fool experts and selling thousands (?) of coins to dealers.  Why not make art fakes of Leonardo Da Vinci or Rembrandt or whomever ? (2)  The level of detail that someone who was in his teens at the time -- press tonage, strikes of the press, etc. -- are not the kind of thing any kid is going to recall, except maybe a hard-core numismatist.  And who is discussing those details anyway ?  Bonanno isn't. I doubt his lawyer dad is, either. (3)  Hard to believe in 35-plus pages of typing he couldn't spell "Gaudens" correctly once !!  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie8" alt=":D" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> (4)  There is NO evidence that someone stole the 1907 MCMVII HR dies.  There was no Mafia or OC at that time from 1907 or 1908.  And they just stayed inactive/hidden for 55 years ?  Like most of his claims, I can't DISPROVE this...nor can I state that it is PROVEN.  It's POSSIBLE -- just not PROVEN. (5)  TTTT seemed fixated that dealers and experts didn't publish more info on the Omega HRs, like how to ID it for professional liability reasons.  Maybe because there were only a few dozen or hundred made instead of thousands or tens of thousands ? (6)  Bonanno Quote:  "I sure had fun making those fakes, but it was more fun to expose the fakes".  If he was so careful, under 24/7 FBI and camera surveillance...he's going to admit to making countefeit coins ?  To a stranger ? (7)  I agree with this quote:  "More information about the Omega coins has been released in the last 14 hours than in the last 49 years" on this thread."   But the give-and-take with the CU people also made the thread, and those are lost to date.  And Insider's comments and the fact that he was involved with the discovery of the Omega High Reliefs and could counter some of the errors/overstatements of TTTT....added alot to the thread. TTTT posts are good STORY TELLING.  Insider's newsletter is GOOD FACTS on the Omega HRs. (8)  My Main Objection:   If Bonanao talked about this to associates or friends...who would even know what he was talking about ?  Who the hell knew what a Saint-Gaudens DE was or an MCMVII HR?   Were they numismatists ? (9)  This could be Insider or another veteran at CU:  "I've had a chance to go over most of the posts again. I don't have time to post at the moment but here are some things to consider:<ul> <li>After all these years, I believe much of what TTTT has posted happened. Mr. B was involved, where the coins were made, and TTTT connection. However, there is a lot of unverifiable info, conjecture, and misinformation in these threads. For example, a Denver Mint ledger page was briefly posted as a joke and TTTT used this to confirm that HR dies left the Mint. It is a shame this joke caused more misinformation to the story.</li> </ul> <ul> <li>This is what I believe so far based on the coins themselves: TTTT knows a lot of what went on. NO GENUINE HR DIES WERE USED TO PRODUCE THE FAKES. Every fake "Omega" $20 was produced by the same dies. I've examined other counterfeit HR's (not "Omega's") but they are not very deceptive to a professional authenticator. So, I believe transfer dies were delivered to Mr. B. IMO, NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up. The genuine HR coins were struck on a "huge" medal press. Mr. B's press was a "baby."</li> </ul> <ul> <li>I believe what is left to do is to analyse a few genuine coins, a few Omega's, and a few 50 Pesos. Gold and silver mined from different sources have different trace elements. This will probably determine if 50 Pesos were used for planchets or not.</li> </ul>(10)  Remember, the MCMVII HRs needed 3 parts:  obverse die, reverse die, and edge collar. There isn't much talk about the obverse and reverse quality of the coins, except for the "wormy tool marks" and the Omega sign.  Can't recall anything about the edge but that's tough to fake. CaptHen :  "As I said way back when, they would have to have been struck in an original three-piece collar as well. A fake three-piece collar would exhibit evidence that would expose the pieces as modern strikes, or counterfeits if you will." (11)  TTTT said:  "You now know about the vast network an organized crime employs. The vast majority of the coins went thru investment bankers or houses. ROGERB noted that Walter Breen represented a house or houses. We know he was the best guy out there at the time and we know he authenticated these coins. We also know, he did every thing in his power right up to the very end to defend the coin as authentic. I am not insinuating anything, but I do have a question. Was Walter Breen actually convinced these coins were real or did he find himself in a terrible position and his reputation was on the line or did he know all along that it was a fake? Food for Thought!" Does anybody know if Walter Breen ever commented on the Omega HR's ?  Did he get fooled ?  I have no idea.  Have never seen Bowers or Akers comment either on the coins, maybe they have something obscure in the Newman Portal or in some auction catalog. Like I said, this thread was a great story.  There isn't much information on the Omega HRs, so any information -- even if partly false, embellished, or incorrect -- is still worth reading so long as parts of it were true.  Now...how much was ?  20% ?  50% ?  75% ?  Makes a big difference.<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie33" alt=":cigar:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Maybe TTTT will come over to CT.  Again, for a story, the CU thread is good reading...but for facts and actual investigative sleuthing backed up by facts, read Insiders' outstanding newsletter.  Hopefully, if he has more newsletters with stuff on the Omega's, actual MCMVII HR's, or even plain ordinary Saints, it's available online or maybe he'll post it.  Apparently, some letters are missing which is too bad.<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie10" alt=":oops:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]

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