Hiya all Am looking for help on the following German ticket for a rare Autronia denarius with three (!!) pre world war one dates on it: What I can read Autronia B.1 (that's the Babelon number of the coin type) Dioskurenm ROMA (the reverse type) XXXXXXX AVTR (something I can't read then AVTR which is the monogram) 24-X-1901 (believe the date is 1901 from the writer's habit of dotting his 1's) Babelon 80 fr (that's the catalogue value in Babelon, so another catalogue ref) Merzb[acher] 1908 or 1900, 40 marks (pretty sure it's Merzbacher, fits perfectly, not sure if the date is 1900 or 1908). So the problem with either date is that the only Merzbacher sales on Heidelberg from those dates are modern coins (see second pic below) Then ( xxxxxxxxx II-XI-1914 ) - what is the word before the third date? the letter in the middle looks rather like the first D in Dioskuren So hoping someone with familiarity reading German hand writing will be able to help on the two words marked as XXXXX above. These may of course all be retail sales. The second date (1900 or 1908) may very likely only be a value comparator from a sale and may not be this coin. But the two full dates 24-X-1901 and II-XI-1914 must be buy or sale dates? Any guesses welcome thanks Andrew
Cool! The 2nd year looks like 1904 to me, not 1908 or 1900. I don't know German, but the letters in the first XXXXXXX word towards the top looks like to me "znirfau" or something. The last XXXXXXXX word looks like it ends like "XXXXdazz".
Yes indeed it doesn't match the 8 in the prior line so it can't be 8. If the second number was 1909 (not really sure it can be), there was a relevant sale in a 1909 Merzbacher auction:
It could be that when the person was writing quickly they just didn't close top of the 9... The motion to write a 9 and 4 are similar.
Oh, Sütterlin script – I love it! Here is what I read on your ticket: Autronia B.1 Dioskuren, ROMA Zeichen AR 24.X 1901 Babelon 80 fr. Merzb. 1904 40 mk. (entdeckt II.XI. 1914) It's not clear to me what "entdeckt" ('discovered') is supposed to mean in this context, but I am pretty sure this is the word.
Is there an 8 underneath the 9 in 1914? Could it have been meant to be 1814? The curved line there might have been a misplace or written-too-early parentheses? It doesn't match the other 9s by the writer (straight tails).
This is great thank you! In my view, the 1914 discovery relates to the Merzbacher 1904 price comparison and the coin was bought by the collector in 1901. Open for other interpretations!
Well, thanks to all and a nice find! Who does not love old tickets? They truly speak to the historicity of the particular coin. Allow me to chime in on the German. I had a lot of it from before the 7th grade through my junior year in college. I am now working for my third German company here in the USA where even the German is "Denglisch" (Deutsch Englisch). But I do not use it every day and these assignments have been years apart. Anyway... The script is not Sütterlin script. It is Kurrent. Wikipedia has examples of both. For one thing Sütterlin script was commissioned by the Prussian government in 1915. So, this collector was unlikely to have learned it. If you look at the word "zeichen" the h looks exactly like the Kurrent and not at all like the Sütterlin. (2) If you look at the coin you see that it has an AR after the ROMA. That's why "zeichen AR" for sign, symbol, mark,..., AR silver, of course. Unless some other meaning can be assigned to AR. As a personal bonus, reading Wikipedia on Kurrent handwriting, I never knew before that the umlaut came from putting a little e over the vowel. But I did know that you could get around the lack of an umlaut on your American keyboard by putting an e after the vowel as in "Suetterlin" for "Sütterlin" or for "Schrödinger" writing "Schroedinger" which allows even Sheldon Cooper to mispronounce the name with a long o. Be all that as it may, it's a cool coin, for sure.
What looks like "AR" is actually the symbol which is an anagram for AVTR. It doesn't mean silver in this context. So symbol makes sense. I'll look up Kurrent thanks. Seems we've got the translation cracked by now. Only my interpretation needed. I do need to mention that 1909 would make a whole lot more sense than 1904 for the middle date. Wonder could the last digit be a mis-written 9. Or a misread catalogue date. The coin type appeared in a 1909 Merzbacher sale. I'm loving this
Of course, AVTR for Autronia. My oversight of the obvious, as it is the subject of the discussion. I got fixated on "zeichen." And, yes, who does not love chasing down details? Otherwise, one coin is pretty much like the next. I think it is in the autobiography Last Man on the Moon by Eugene Cernan. On the Apollo 17 journey to the Moon, geologist Harrison (Jack) Schmitt was loquacious. He wanted to talk about everything. The other two, Cernan and Ronald Evans, had work to do. Finally, on the Moon, Schmitt is working hard gathering rocks and Cernan is enjoying the view. "My God, Jack, look at the Earth!" Replied Schmitt, without looking up, "Seen one, you've seen them all." Not like coins, eh?
