Help in identifying a Denier Tournois

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Mithril, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. Mithril

    Mithril New Member

    Hi - I hope this is in the right section - it doesn't really fit with ancients and there isn't a specific medieval area.

    Could anyone assist with narrowing down the identification of this Denier Tournois please? It's not an area I'm that familiar with.

    thanks Crusader Denier Tournois.jpg in advance
     
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  3. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 Casual Collector / error expert "in Training "

    Wow. Hello Mithril . It's to early for the Expert Medieval's . I'm part Vampire and reside nightly but have no experience in this period but love the Coin. It appears to look like a Pirate's coin . Arrrgh !
     
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  4. norantyki

    norantyki CoinMuncher

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  5. John Conduitt

    John Conduitt Well-Known Member

    Very tricky. So many issues look just like it and they rarely have clear legends. Based on what I can make out of the reverse legend (reverse in the example being the cross) I'd guess:

    Saint-Martin de Tours (abbaye). Anonymous. 12th-early 13th centuries.
    Obv: + SCS MΛRTINVS - chateau tournois
    Rev: + TVRONVS CIVI - cross pattée.

    Duplessy, Féodales 412; Poey d'Avant 1638; Boudeau 185; Roberts 4856.

    https://www.catawiki.com/l/24893139-france-saint-martin-de-tours-lot-of-2-deniers-tournois-silver

    Also: https://www.ma-shops.com/saenn/item.php?id=23980
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
  6. Mithril

    Mithril New Member

    Thanks for the answers - John - I think you've nailed it. It looks a match for both sides. Thanks again.
     
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  7. John Scholefield

    John Scholefield Active Member

    I'll concur with John Conduitt. Your coin, though a pleasant looking coin was quite difficult to read. Yours is probably quite a late coin in the series say (1150-1180).
    The type was taken over by Philippe Auguste (1180- 1223) who added his name to the legend, and really flowered and became a National currency under St Louis IX (1226-1270). It was extensively immitated by other currency issuers in France (different legends) but Louis forbade this around 1265. Louis did allow the type to be produced in Frankish Greece (Achaia & Athens) and it was immitated in Southern Italy.
    I append a page from Poey d'Avant (1864) illustrating the development of the type.
    upload_2021-3-10_9-45-29.png
     
  8. Mithril

    Mithril New Member

    Thanks very much for that extra info - very helpful.

    Does anyone know what the motif on the obverse actually is? It doesn't look like a stylized crown - Is it a building?
     
  9. norantyki

    norantyki CoinMuncher

    @Mithril - yes, it is a building, often referred to as a Chateau, or Chatel Tournois. The appellation would suggest that it specifically depicts the Castle of Tours, but I have read it described as a castle, church, or cathedral - judging by the cross at top, I personally find the latter most convincing.
     
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  10. John Scholefield

    John Scholefield Active Member

    The general view amongst French numismatists is that the Tour 'Chatel' design, evolves from the Hexastyle temple seen on the coins of Louis the Pious circa 800.
    upload_2021-3-11_9-17-5.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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