Help identifying Fallen Horseman RIC

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Kaleun96, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    I finally picked up a Fallen Horseman type last week and have been trying to find one similar to mine online to help narrow down the RIC number. I've gone through AC Search, CoinArchives, WildWinds, Vcoins, MA-Shops, this forum, forumancientcoins, MANTIS, Helvetica's Fel Temps, Doug Smith's website, etc but have still come up short.

    I'm a bit new to RIC numbers as I mainly collect Greek, Roman Republican, or early-ish Roman imperial and don't often get too bogged down in the exact reference. But in this case so much is known about this type I wanted to see how narrowly I could identify it.

    So what seems to be a bit unique about this one is primarily the position of the arm of the fallen horseman as it's bent backwards over his body/face. This has occurred on a few types from what I can tell (e.g. the first one listed on Helvetica's Antioch page or one posted here by mardivnvm).

    But in those cases there are a few other differences in the shield placement, style of the Roman soldier, and in the case of the Helvetica example the symbol in the left field.
    Those two also have ANA and ANH as the mint marks, while my one appears to be ANZ (and was sold as such). Though from what I understand, you will have multiple mint marks under the same RIC number so that difference is less important.


    I hope imgur links are allowed, if not I can reduce the file size to host it here.
    [​IMG]
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, paschka, PeteB and 6 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    That is a great looking FEL TEMP. I can't find an exact match for it either.
    The mintmark is ANZ (at least to me).
     
    Kaleun96 likes this.
  4. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    RIC VIII Antioch 132 (//ANZ)
     
    Kaleun96 likes this.
  5. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    Thanks! I'm pretty pleased with it too, the original lot photo probably does it better justice too.

    I should also add, it weighs 4.29g and is 23mm in diameter at its widest.

    Ah interesting, I had been looking at RIC 132 due to the one of yours that you posted but I couldn't find one with the same shield position and style of the soldier. I guess there are a lot of variations captured within the RIC designations?
     
  6. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    There are a whole host of minor variations.

    I have an ANH here with a double ring on the shield and the horseman grabbing the spear and the shield on the ground is oval and under the rear foot of the horse.

    [​IMG]
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, PeteB, Bing and 3 others like this.
  7. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    There are basically two top level options here, either RIC 132 or RIC 135. RIC 132 is generally reaching back towards the emperor with the horseman facing the emperor and arm generally reaching back towards the emperor (many minor variations). RIC 135 has the horseman falling forward clutching the neck of the horse with both arms, head facing away from the emperor (other minor variations include shield shapes, detail, positions, bearded horseman, hairstyles etc.).

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, PeteB, Bing and 3 others like this.
  8. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the info and photos, you have some great fallen horseman examples!

    I read somewhere that there may be over 2,000 variations so I can see why the RIC numbers are more of a general grouping.
     
  9. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the info @maridvnvm. I was looking at RIC 132 also but the shield at the bottom right was different. I wasn't sure if that would constitute a different variety or not.
     
  10. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    @maridvnvm I was also meaning to ask you if you had found out how the semi-circle outline on one of your FH coins came to be? It seems like mine has a very similar marking, even starting from the same A in REPARATIO as in yours.
     
  11. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I have always thought that it is a flan break/crack caused during a previous off-centre strike
     
  12. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Oh and that one has what I consider to be Predator rather than a fallen horseman.
     
  13. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I only have three of the 15 officina numbered mintmarks for these and I do not have the Z(7). Every die was an individual work and the cutter made little effort to match small details. I have never noted the arm position on yours but that is probably more a sign that I have not paid attention to it.
    Shop 2
    rx6905bb2101.jpg
    Shop 5
    rx6910b01684lg.JPG
    shop 12
    rx6940b01405lg.JPG
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, PeteB, Bing and 1 other person like this.
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Perhaps your Z was modified into an H when year 8 began? That is how I read my coin of the smaller denomination from this period. ANH over ANZ
    rx6890bb2207.jpg
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, PeteB, Kaleun96 and 2 others like this.
  15. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    OP's coin does seem to have that H/Z look to it, doesn't it?
     
  16. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    That's an interesting thought. At some stage I was comparing it to ANH mintmarks as I thought it looked a bit odd for a Z. Even the A in ANZ is a bit broad at the top and resembles an H but I assume there are no HN mintmarks!
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    As today, the Romans had several 'typefaces' used at different times and places across the huge empire. Modern people expect them always to use Times Roman? That is not the fact. Not long after your coin, the Falling Horsemen went through a short period where A was usually made H. Lets also remember that Greek has the letter alpha and the long A sound eta which was made like an H. I have no idea if these H shapes were made as a style or sign that the die cutter was Greek.
    rx6480bb2127.jpg rx6850bb2457.jpg
     
    +VGO.DVCKS, PeteB, Bing and 1 other person like this.
  18. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Nice read all thank you
     
  19. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page