Have NGC Standards been improving? PCGS vs. NGC standards

NGC is way too fussy when it comes to grading coins with minor problems. I say this as both an NGC and a PCGS authorized dealer. Read Maurice Rosen's recent numismatic advisory with his crystal ball report from the top leading dealers in the country. There was a concensus on a number of issues. One of them was that NGC is details grading way too many coins.

 

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not to play "devil's advocate" and to be fair, I have not read Mr. Rosen's advisory, but to me it makes more sense that more and more coins are being details graded because:

1) the number of coins now graded is inching closer and closer to 100% of all coins and as such more of the "problem coins" are now being submitted because there are fewer "problem-free" coins left.

2) the detection of problem coins is becoming more precise and the TPGs ability to detect such coins is becoming sharper.

3) more novices are submitting coins on their own and many of these should be and are graded as the problem coins that they are.

Grading standards will change slightly over time and this has proven true over the lifespan of PCGS and NGC, but I don't think that TPGs would consciously change their view of what constitutes a problem coin. I think it is more of a product of the above factors than anything else. The means of detecting things like coin doctoring become clearer as the TPG gets more of a handle on what constitutes a doctored coin. The same can be said for a host of other issues including artificial toning.

My worry will be much greater when NGC stops grading problem coins as problem coins and when MS-70 coins seemingly proliferate. The loosening of standards is bad for the TPG and the collecting public as well. Anything that makes judging more critical is better IMHO.

 

About 99% of people can not understand that about all ot the top four grading companies are very close to being the same . What most people can not understand is that which ever worker at these companys grades your coin determines how it will be graded or authenticated. there is no way that just one man does the grading of millions of coins each month,there are hundreds of workers involved. some of these workers don't appear to know much at all about coins so why should we pay more for a coin that one of thems says is MS66 over one that is graded like say MS64. sometimes the MS64 will be better than the MS66. I suppose all we get extra is the numbers on the slab and this is so childish just so someone can say my toy is better than your toy.. just last night someone showed a image of a NGC slabbed nickel on the forum and some kid at NGC had it labeled as struck on defective clad planchet. Imagine that ..... a grader that does not even know our nickels are not clad coins. All of the four best grading services appears to be hiring cheap labor . another thing I want to say is that when a rich person submits their coins the grading companys usually gives their coins a much higher grade IMO . we need to just buy some coin slabs to protect our coins and stop giving our cash away to the goof offs for nothing.

 

I have seen no changing standards within the coins I collect (type and large cents).

 

Oligopoly

 

Doug, thank you for setting the record straight. It would really bother me if comments like that went unchallenged because we have so many newcomers to the hobby here. I'd hate to see them misled.

Chris

 

Disagree

 

I don't know GG. As a red shirt I was PCGS, but lately I have been drifting NGC on some series (such as the Franklin).

 

I do not understand the PCGS grading standard when it comes to FBL. Earlier today I was looking intently at an MS Franklin labeled FBL by PCGS that was clearly not FBL material. Full Bell Lines should be just that.

 

"And yet people choose to believe that the TPGs will not, have not changed their grading standards"


Take this coin in an old PCGS holder that I sold at auction last night: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/33385/1907-Liberty-Eagle-PCGS-AU-58-OGH-2nd-Gen

Would it have been worth cracking the coin out and resubmitting, hoping for an MS63 instead of the actual OH AU58? Possibly. Clearly the grading services modify their grades in time. What used to be seen as rub, cabinet friction, etc., gets forgiven and the coin ends up in an MS holder because its merits out weigh the tiny problem.

With NGC, they also had similarly tight grading standards where they would not MS a coin that had a little wear or friction, the definition of MS has evolved as understanding of what constitutes an impediment to an MS grade has matured. When gold was trading in the $300s there was less of a stake between the various higher grades. Looking at population figures also helps to see shifts in standards, a statistical analysis at five year intervals from the inception of the TPGs would give concrete backing to the idea of evolving standards.

 

That would be an interesting experiment Owle. I suppose if the owner instantly re-cracked the slab and submitted it back to PCGS we could find out the answer. Would this coin sell at a higher price due to a slightly higher grade? Sometimes it seems that people pay a higher premium just because it is OGH slabbed. Sure wish I were an expert grader.

 

Whoa, I knew graders made money, but 6 figures? Jeeze, I need to get to grading more coins.

 

LOL Merc, I already looked into it. Don Willis emailed me saying: " I think you should attend the ANA sessions before attempting to get a job at PCGS as a grader." An NGC guy said "I don't believe that finding a few DDR Franklins qualifies you for the position of a grader." I said "but sir, if carpo-tunnel is a job requirment, I have that box checked." 300,000 more coins and I will make another attempt.

 

I know a lot of graders were dealers beforehand, so I'd expect 20+ years of experience with all major US coin types is kind of a prerequisite.

 

I was in a counterfeit detection seminar with Ron Guth from PCGS, and asked how someone would get a job as a grader. He basically said that if you have some proof of references or credentials they have it set in there system so that you can sit in and grade for a shift. Your grades must be consistent with the other graders and finalizer to qualify for the position. Sitting in a dark room staring at thousands of coins a day may sound like a great job, but burnout is pretty common I'm sure.

 

I do not think its your imagination but to get a clearer picture you really should include the undergrades.

IF the undergrades increased in proportion to the PR69DCAM/PF70DCAM then its simply a matter of more submission due to relative sales prices and submission privileges. By that I mean that in 2002, I could not submit coins for grading but in 2003 I could. Better yet, when did PCGS and NGC create the Collector's Club level for non-Dealers to submit coins for grading?

Better yet, how many were submitted for grading during the explosion years?

As an IKE collector/seller, I would always point out that the "total" number of 1972 Type 2 coins graded by PCGS was well under 1,000 coins to address relative rarity. Since then the populations have almost doubled meaning that more folks have been submitting them.

Maybe, just maybe, the increase in PR69DCAM and PR70DCAM populations is more closely related to the "volume" of submissions and not necessarily a lessoning of grading standards?