Has Grading Gone to Far?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Long Beard, May 10, 2020.

  1. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    TC, I don't think you'll deny that there's often a double bump - an MS-63 gets upgraded to 64 because of its amazing eye appeal and toning, and then sells for 2x of the 64 price because it's so pretty. Technically, it's a 63, but it sold for a 65 price.

    That's the heart of a couple of threads that @ddddd posted where coins jumped multiples in grade (I think he showed an MS-64 Morgan that made it into a 66 holder? and maybe even more egregious jumps) based on the toning/color/ eye appeal. The coin was really a 65 or 66, but wound up in a 67 holder because that's where it's value was.
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Just got the "tag." So much to read and so little time. I'll comment more later in case members are interested. I'll start with this post.

    I agree. Color adds value so very often the grade and price are bumped up. Sometimes a lot. :jawdrop:
     
  4. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    The thread that you may be referencing had 65/66 coins that were bumped into the 66-68 range.
    I'm not a fan of the practice as it can distort the prices significantly. The toner market already has premiums that can easily be 10x+ guide, so a bump from a 65 ($100 guide) to a 67 ($500 guide) could be equal to a $1,000-$1,500 coin becoming a $5,000-$10,000 coin (just because of a change in label).
     
  5. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Sounds good.

    How many people do I need to organize and pitchforks do I need to buy, to get TPGs to abide by the philosophy of technical grading?
     
    John Skelton likes this.
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You just need a time machine to go back over half a century or more as those that really want true technical grading as a very small minority. If you can get back and convince the hippies you might have a shot though
     
  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    But it was PCGS that floated the proposal to switch to a 100 point system some years back.
     
  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Ron Guth did after he had left PCGS and it didn't take that long for them say no it isn't happening
     
  9. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    A glorious example of market grading. Straight grade XF-40 by PCGS. The entire surfaces have a very thin mineralized buildup. I find this coin super attractive, but it isn’t a coin that should ever be straight-graded.

    A3448EBF-C211-42AB-973B-220C751EC5F3.jpeg
     
  10. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    And the people that graded it should be tarred and feathered.
     
  11. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    I'll use hippie tactics against the TPGs by placing flowers in their loupes.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  12. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I dunno about that. Is it “environmentally damaged,” or just toned? Hard call. I would lean towards toned, as the chemical reaction causing the buildup sure looks like natural toning to me.
     
  13. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    I've read your other posts and respect your knowledge of Numismatics. Having said that please understand I'm not trying to start an argument over this but by adding the words "as well", one could interpret the entire sentence that ANACS & ICG had retired "as well" as the other basement slabbers. Peace :)
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Standards always change over time, 99 percent plus of standards have evolved over time and it doesn't mean they're worse.

    Which should be a part of the grade. Some will disagree there and that is a great divide, but part of the issue with the system in general was that ugly 60s are graded higher than pristine 58s. Eye appeal, luster and surfaces absolutely should be part of a grade
     
  15. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    That malachite green and ruby red are not in the toning progression. They are, however, results of more corrosive processes. If you look closely, you can see the pebbling over the entire surface that indicates mineralization buildup is occurring. This is more evident on the reverse.

    https://www.worldcoppersmith.com/copper-patina-guide/

    Thoughts @physics-fan3.14 ?
     
  16. Murphy45p

    Murphy45p Active Member

    Sorry to just jump in here, but very provocative post!

    So like everything else, grading standards change over time as more data and more technology becomes available. Thing is, that to a point, grading is subjective. The only way to standardize grading would be to go to some technological process, even then, I don't think it would be perfect.

    Technologically, a coins strike depth could be measured. As could its weight, metal content, and each feature could be mapped precisely. Reflectiveness (luster) could be measured, and artificially altered coins (toning, scratches) might be detectable as well. At least at that point we have a more objective grading system, if still not perfect.

    From reading earlier, it is obvious that the original scale wasn't fully intended to be utilized as it is today, it was as much a pricing mechanism as a grading mechanism. Whether or not an alternative scale would be accepted is conjecture. Anyone remember the push for the metric system? Still not adopted in the U.S. some 50 years later and any transition would need to utilize both numbers.

    Overall, the grading services provide value to those of us without refined grading skills. It provides me confidence, when I purchase a coin of value, that the coin is authentic and a means to resell the coin (if I ever do that, lol) and provide the purchaser assurance. There may be better graders out there than the services, but I think everyone would acknowledge that the services are competent, they look at a lot of coins every day.

    Today, a non-sophisticated collector such as myself, can look at a lot of coins. Supplies are apparent, easily seen over the internet, which is a resource that wasn't available to me even 30 years ago. In a way, that has refined population counts and availability and redefined the market, because before then I would have been limited to local dealers and coin shows.

    To me, a CAC sticker only holds value if I were purchasing coins sight unseen. I never do that. I can judge brilliance and luster with my own eyes.
     
  17. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    You would definitely know cents far better than I, for sure. The only examples of cents I’ve collected are a few type coins, and it is definitely not my area of expertise. Large silver coins? Yes, I think a have some knowledge, but not in this area of coinage. It is a super attractive coin—I love the details for its age, and absolutely love the die crack on the reverse. I can see the red-azure buildup as corrosion, now that you point it out. I would have thought straight XF grade, but a no grade for environmental damage does seem logical, in light of the damage to the copper.
     
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I agree. I love the patina as well.
     
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  19. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    I won't even pretend to be a copper expert. I have a few copper coins for my type set, but I generally don't play with copper.

    However, is your coin that different from the ones shown here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/i-love-a-glossy-bottle-green-patina.359991/
     
  20. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

  21. John Skelton

    John Skelton Morgan man!

    Say I have a MS64 coin but think it should be higher. I have also heard the TPGs have loosened their standards, plus there's the factor of grade inflation, so I think I have a chance! I send in the coin, it comes back, and suddenly because of the upgrade, I've added a few extra bucks to the value of the coin. So who has gained the most from this regrading? Who is responsible for the loose standards that allowed me to also profit?

    It seems to me that as the various TPGs change their standards, they get more customers wanting to get a new grade, and therefore they make out like a bandit from all the resubmissions.

    I think the best thing to do to avoid all this is to buy the coin, not the slab.
     
    frankjg likes this.
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