It would appear as if my latest buy got through the system.. Will take some pics that better show what I mean shortly
As I understand it, PCGS and NGC will grade cleaned coins IF: -- the cleaning was "lightly" done -- it was done LONG ago -- the coins have naturally retoned Obviously each of those criteria are subjective.
Wow. lol. I am getting the feeling this may have been "conserved" the spots on the reverse where it's shiny silver are per ulnar though.
What are you seeing that makes you think its cleaned? Light cleaning that has retoned will receive a straight grade, as long as it is market acceptable. There is a fine line between market acceptable and harshly cleaned (haha, get it?). US proof coinage of the mid-19th century often walks that line - most of the proof coins graded under 64 have light hairlines from cleaning (which was considered acceptable in its time). These coins will, of course, receive a deduction in grade. I am not seeing any immediate signs of cleaning on the coin in the OP - but given its age, I wouldn't be surprised, either.
I've had very little to do with Shelton scale and graded coins in the past I like to stick with the old gVF and the likes ha! This has some very fine multi-directional scratches on the obverse which made me wonder. However looking at it now it has retoned. My next problem is the 2 blobs of silver as if some cleaner has dropped onto it there. Big one on the last c of CVC and also on the L of feines siLber The same problem is around the OM on NOM. The problem is I'm comparing it to my AU50 1820 issue which is heavily toned and has an almost matte look where as this has a more metallic shine.
Really beautiful coin. May have been given a little leeway due to its age, but it's definitely market acceptable.
The problem with "cleaning" is metal loss; impossible to put the genie back in the bottle, as it were. I have heard they even use MS70 cleaner at NCS; and clearly they have botched numerous jobs, I have a friend who was steaming about how they butchered his Trade dollars, of course there is no recourse afterwards, just a steep bill. They called me recently due to an NGC submission that had a coin with residue...ICG would offer to do the job gratis they are very good about that. And Skip Fazzari is quite good at it. It is all about money. "Market acceptable"? Don't make me laugh. NGC and PCGS have plenty of coins in straight holders that cause the tongues to wag--big time! Personally I would rather have a Barber half that is presentable with a little wear and some cleaning rather than the butt ugly Barbers I have seen in NGC holders where someone artfully toned the coin dark.
Do you have before and after pictures to prove/illustrate that? I personally have submitted about a dozen coins to NCS and have been well pleased by the results each time. They might not have returned a "perfect" coin, but when you submit to NCS, you do it because it has problems to begin with. You can't expect a gem coin to be returned. You can expect a coin that has been conserved and stabilized. The two are very different.
I hope someone does a thoroughly researched piece on this topic at some point. Yes absolutely they use harsh chemicals and work on coins best left alone. And sometimes they get lucky with ED coins that dip out nicely. Remember one of their biggest money makers have been the shipwreck coins that look nothing like the original coins of the same gold denom. and year. And remember how PCGS had the good sense to tell Kagins that they were not up to doing the Saddle Ridge coins properly with out affecting the surfaces adversely. So Kagin's guy McCarthy ended up using boiling water instead of the chemical methods. A couple quick examples--I showed a $20 Lib. to David Lange at an ANA show and he said a spot on the coin "might spread" if left unattended! I have never seen a spot spread like disease on a gold coin. They ended up charging their larcenous 5% to "conserve" the coin; ie a quick dip in acetone or similar chemical! Another classic over $10K gold coin they ruined with a dip, in the judgment also of a high end dealer I bought it from. I wrote a strong letter demanding a refund without getting any response. I should have filed a complaint with the state AG.
Dips sure, but acetone doesn't hurt anything. It just removes contaminants. NCS does a nice job if you submit coins that need conservation. Any time I submit a copper or iron coin I send it through NCS first and they have done wondrous things.
The only thing I would use them for at this point is gold copper spot removal of no problem gold coins, and I have none of them now. They charge under $20 for that in most cases. Once you pay 5% on a coin worth over $1000, it is virtually impossible to make any money unless the grade is high. And if it comes back in a purple holder you are just flushing money down the toilet. Same thing with PCGS and their restoration department where they charge 4% of their high retail price guide.
