Has anyone ever given up on getting coins graded?

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@GDJMSP - I appreciate you sharing your thought process regarding "worth." I've never really thought about it this way. I've always heard the adage, "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it," but that statement always seemed lacking to me. Now that I've heard your take on it, I have a deeper understanding of how this statement isn't as simple as it sounds, and it isn't as true as it sounds. Thank you. I can totally appreciate your point of view.

I haven't been a member here for very long, but soon after joining and participating I could tell right away that you were a master of numismatics.

 

Thanks for your answers. And I appreciate and respect your experience.

But I can't say that I agree - especially when you use loosey-goosey terms like "knowledgeable" to define value. How "knowledgeable" is "knowledgeable?" Infinitely? Is there a threshold one crosses to proceed from unknowledgeable to knowledgeable? I strongly believe that it is a sliding scale, not a black line that one crosses. Most of us are willing to admit that we are still learning and becoming "more knowledgeable" all the time. And I believe that even folks who are considered to be the most knowledgeable and experienced in the hobby will disagree on a coin's grading and even sometimes its nature.

However, I do appreciate that you took the time to provide a very detailed reply. Thanks.

 

Any advantage offered by slabs - and I concede there are many - disappear the moment sheer profit motive departs your list of priorities. Pure altruism isn't really profitable.

 

Already disagree with this. You can pick out over and underpriced examples from both easily those are called outliers and absolutely don't reflect a coins value. I know this as those are the two venues I use 98% of the time. You have a strong bias against ebay which you've made clear many many times here. Confirmation bias can be a strong thing.

I buy about the same percentage of coins that I target on ebay as I do Heritage and gun to my head I'd give the edge to ebay for getting comparable coins for less mostly due to Heritage's large fees.

The above is not true, it's your opinion that I believe to be biased.

I believe a coin is worth what a recent history of sales of comparable coins are worth regardless of the knowledge level of those buying the coin. This does not include outliers as mentioned above which can be found in LCS's, ebay, Heritage, GC, or anywhere with coins available.

Rarities that only show up every blue moon are still worth what someone will pay for them however in that instance what someone will pay is a lot cloudier with a very high variance.

Coins sometimes sell for more on ebay, other times less. Buyers on ebay are for the most part not knowledgeable, they still affect the market for coins.

When they overpay for a coin compared to other sales for that piece that is not a reflection of the coins value, that is an outlier and should not be used when valuing your own coin.

No because selling a counterfeit coin as genuine is an outlier. Of course that situation would not be used in valuing a coin.

Agreed. Knowledgeable people will avoid things they feel are overvalued. The value is still what people are willing to pay for that item at that given time, people who have a strong knowledge of that specific item may just not agree with it's current going rate. The going rate is still the same regardless.

If I could only pay what an expert decided my next car was worth I'd be thrilled but I live in the real world where I have to pay what the market allows the car to sell for. I'm not overpaying I'm simply paying what I have to to purchase a product that meets my needs that doesn't change just because an expert wouldn't have bought the same car for the same price.

 

Because the dealer has to have a margin to stay in business. These examples do nothing to prove your point. If the original coin was bought properly then the dealer will turn around and sell it for $500 himself and pay his electric bill that month. He knows what the value is and knows he has to offer less.

 

I gave up on getting things certified when PCGS kept screwing up my submissions.
It wasn;t so much that things were undergraded as much as it was that they either ignored the obvious, ignored the attribution request or just mislabeled the coin!

You see, sending back a submission because they screwed it up means that you have to include the return postage receipt in the package which requires a trip to the post office for Express or Priority Mail.

Then they reimburse you with a chit for free return shipping?

Don Willis knows how to pinch a penny until it screams.

 

And people certain of their skills will offer a slightly higher low number knowing that they have to spend to get it graded or be largely confined to people that just want to feel like they got a deal with the lower raw price.

Which the costs associated with with be reflected in their offer.

You keep pushing this but people active in the market that use online sources a lot know this isn't true and keep pointing that out when you say this. Sure there are some examples of that happening, there are also countless examples of it working the other way and countless dealers sourcing inventory and coins for people from eBay. There is also a lot more involved than you make

You also don't actually know what the persons out of pocket cost was on the eBay purchase. Last I checked the major auction houses aren't handing out coupons for discounts, money back such as eBay bucks, or having free shipping ect. eBay routinely runs promotions for percentages off the sale price, extra eBay bucks, maybe the buyer used eBay bucks from the last quarter and the purchase was actually free as some examples. The sale prices at the other places aren't all that the buyer would be paying anyway when you factor in the associated shipping and handling fees or credit card fees ect.

Numismatic dealers aren't working off a 10 percent margin consistently, high volume bullion dealers might be in bullion but the vast majority of the time if they are going to sell it for $330 you won't sniff $300 in their offer unless they're doing you a favor for whatever reason.

 

I disagree there. They're a lot more knowledgeable in coins than forums like to give them credit for. It isn't any different than anywhere else, a percentage are clueless but the same goes for a LCS buyers or show buyer ect. Even a lot of the "bad" purchases you can find a percentage of those are by knowledgeable buyers who let greed cloud their judgement hoping to hit it big. Not to mention a lot of "bad" buys are really called that because people don't think a market for such things should exist.

We definitely have a big separation at the moment between the classic collector who grew up going to shows and the new age internet only type collector where as been pointed out in other threads you can find a rather large following on social media and have turned things like YouTube and Instagram into their version of coin forums. They're a sizeable percentage of the eBay buyer base and they aren't clueless. I really don't blame them for avoiding coin forums given how negative people can be about how and what they buy especially towards moderns

 

This most definitely describes me. 99% of the coins I have ever purchased were from eBay. The other 1% came from Great Collections, Inc. and a coin show or two.

 

I'm sensing a lot of black and white thinking in regards to "knowledgeable" vs. "unknowledgeable" buyers, and paying "what the coin is worth" vs. "more than the coin is worth". Has anyone considered that even a buyer with a lot of knowledge might be willing to "overpay" for a coin because they like it and don't care that much?

As for what my coins are worth, they are worth what people are most likely (thus excluding outliers) to pay for them on eBay because that is the only realistic venue for me other than selling to a dealer. I don't really care about their level of knowledge. All I can do is take good photos of the coin and describe it accurately, to give them knowledge about what I am selling. And when I get the money, the last time I checked PayPal didn't deduct any fees after giving a knowledge quiz to the buyer.

 

I actually think eBay does reflect the market for a coins value. But I use it like this:
1. Type in the coin and grade under "completed sold."
2. Take away the highest price and the lowest price.
3. Average the rest.

Bada-bing Bada-boom: Current market value.

 

I agree! The value of a coin is what it is likely to sell for. Once you remove the outliers, that is easier to determine. Unless the coin is thinly traded or is exceptionally good or extra crappy for the grade, the EBay price minus fees is what most of us can expect to get when we sell.

 

Pretty much what I do.

 

So how exactly did you come to the conclusion that dealers determine what a coin is worth? As opposed to eBay, I mean. And earlier, you referenced an example where a coin "retailed for $330..." Well, who set that retail price, Doug? PCGS? NGC? David Lawrence (who now creates the greysheet)? Do they set the market? Nope. People do. And the vast majority of them have access to eBay. I rest my case.

 

You're also leaving out the part that a big factor in that is because of the high fees from the elite auction houses. Most sellers don't have the leverage for Heritage or Stacks nor do they have enough (if any) of the type of material Legend would want. Plenty of things on eBay would fetch a higher price at those venues, but the auction houses aside from Legend and David Lawrence just raised they fees even higher and without that leverage or Legend willing to take the consignment the seller will almost certainly net less than on eBay.

 

Now if you can't bargain with heritage on seller fees/buyer premium, you only get like 70% of the sales price. So what would be the value of a coin if it sold for $1000, Doug? $1000, or $700?