Haggling at coin shows and beyond

Well said.
Catalogs, coins trends and the like are just estimates.
It finally comes down to the coin in question and your knowledge of it and the market.
If a coin is PQ, I don't expect to pay "bid" for it. If the coin is REALLY nice, you have to pretty much throw the gray sheet (or whatever) out the window.
I seek - and find - PQ (for the grade) Canadian coins and have paid top dollar for some of them but I was happy knowing I had a great coin at what I considered to be a fair price.
And in the end that's all that really matters

 

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Speaking of poker, I am still hitting myself. Back around 1999/2000 I'd play poker using halves. Back then the bank always had them for some reason. I've gone through many silver clad either losing them in games or spending them afterward. I didn't think they were worth anything back then!

 

To Mr. Geezer and Gboulton,

In my quest to bring another aspect of buying to this discussion, I may have overgeneralized and should have been more direct, at least in part of what I was trying to say.

Of course it is not a potential buyers responsibility to rescue a dealer buried who himself in a coin. However, if a certain coin is priced fairly and at what the market - not set by said dealer - will hold, he does have every right to make a profit on it. In no way was I trying to imply to either of you (or anyone else in particular) feels this way, but the fact is that there are many, many people out there today who do feel that they have the right to buy at wholesale without exception. It would be bad business for any dealer to not listen to an offer made to them on a coin, but just because said coin is worth only $X to person A, it means nothing in the overall picture if the market will support a higher price and persons B through Z are waiting cash in hand. Just as a buyer has the right to make an offer they feel is fair, a dealer has the right to decline. Generally speaking, a dealer who sets a fair market price on a coin (market price, not a guide value) does have the right to make a profit. Any and all other scenarios excluded, this is a simple fact of business, especially in the rare (not general) coin market.

 

I consider the coin show itself as part of my coin fun and education so I'll usually pay the asking price or close to it - especially if the seller has a nice display and answers questions, etc. A little price request to me is o.k. but to sit and fight over the price of a coin is just plain cheap imo.

 

Market or no market a coin is worth precisely what an informed seller and an equally informed buyer say it is.
Human nature being what it is, the buyer wants a lower price and a seller wants a higher one.
How to surmount this impasse?
Negotiation, leading to an equitable price both are happy with.

 

No one was advocating a "fight" over a coin.
You may think it's "cheap" to haggle but it's done every day of the week.
Perhaps you have unlimited funds to bankroll your numismatic purchases but I don't.
Plus I just enjoy negotiating.

 

Yes, very well said and this - at least in part - is exactly the point I was attempting to make. Not that anyone here is or feels this way, but there is a significant number of collectors/buyers out there today who concern themselves more with the number listed in a guide than with the coin itself. Although it is difficult to discuss this in such a general sense (simply "coins" and not types or specific issues) there are instances where the full retail quote of any guide is low and is why I said that understanding the true market for whatever type one collects is much more important that worrying about any price guide value. Substandard coins are everywhere and more common than quality even in the rarest of series. To put it simply, one gets what they pay for.

 

Because one of my terms was that I did not want my truck built on a Friday, or Monday, or the 15th of the month or the end of the month. I wanted to maximise the fact that workers were attentive and awake when my vehicle was built.
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Who told you when the truck was built? Just curious which dealership employee was lying to you... I ran a multi-line auto group for 25 years and that is information that is impossible to obtain... It's only tracked by the week.


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Don't throw out the poor card with me... you enjoy negotiating, I don't...

 

No offense taken at all.

The snippets quoted above, however, are precisely why I felt it worthwhile to make the distinction I made earlier in the thread.

Any dealer...of coins or anything else...regardless of the price he sets...has every right to make a profit. Whether I'm a buyer in his market or not, I not only support his right, I encourage his efforts, and cherish those with the talent, drive, and intelligence to pull it off.

However...No dealer, of anything anywhere, has a right to a profit.

Again, I think the distinction and wording is important.

That dealer has every right to use his wits, his wisdom, his effort, his motivation, and his work ethic to create something of value for his customers. In the case of coin dealers, often the value he's creating is the opportunity to purchase a rare and desirable coin a buyer might otherwise never have come across.

That opportunity has value. How much is, of course, up to the collective of potential buyers, but make no mistake...it has value. Money, in its role as a store of value, will be exchanged. If the dealer has more money in the end than he started with, he has made a profit.

Be clear...made is precisely what he has done. The value of the buying opportunity did not exist before he created it. He has, quite literally, brought value into the world where there was none before. Money, as the store of that value, now finds itself...deservedly so...in his back pocket. That profit, then, has been created by the efforts of the dealer.

Any businessman with the guts to do it has every right in the world to go do the same thing.

What the dealer does not have a right to is to simply will a profit into existence by virtue of some book or list or "retail market" saying he should have one. He does not have a right to a profit simply because he is in business to make one. Simply asserting that he's in business to make money, or that he has a right to make money, does not mean he is capable of doing so, or that he deserves it.

This is where "But I've got more in it than that!" comes in to play. I've actually had dealers ask me "Do you expect me to sell at a loss?"

The presumption here is that i must acknowledge his desire to turn a profit, and must acquiesce to his demands in order to allow him to do so. he has a right, after all.

No...I don't expect a dealer to sell a coin at a loss. I don't expect you to sell at any particular margin of P&L at all. That's not my job, it's his.

What I demand he does is sell it to me for a price I am willing to pay, or sell it to someone else. He absolutely, as you said, has every right to refuse to sell it to me for that price.

This is why we'll haggle. He has a price at which he makes a profit...I have a price at which I'm interested. Maybe they meet, maybe they don't. If they do, we're all happy. If they don't, then I'll find the coin elsewhere (or not) and he'll find a buyer elsewhere (or not).

A dealer has every right to make a profit.

He should never, however, expect to be granted one.

 

How has this thread strayed from the simple coin show to the economic principle of haggling.

 

"Poor card"? I guess you think not having unlimited funds is being poor. Oh well.

 

We always find something to argue about don't we? What would an internet forum BE without a disagreement?

 

Yea, I'm usually pretty mellow... just a little fired up today I guess...

 

Actually, it was, I believe, the fleet manager, and I was shown on paper with the paperwork that accompanied the vehicle when it was built. That is one of the reasons the truck was pulled from a different dealership, because of my specifications. I will have to continue to look for the paperwork if I still have it to see.

 

It's no biggie, I just read your post and found it amusing... Reminded me of all the stories I'd hear about putting car deals together, and the tactics used... It was a crazy business. People always thought there was "more to it" than there actually was. Watch that scene from the movie FARGO and it'll tell you everything about the car business.... "I don't need no tru-coat!"