Guess the grade, my latest Morgan Dollar.

I can see coins going up 2-3 grades from the AU's (or lower) or even MS-60 and MS-61...but seeing coins go up from MS-64 or MS-65 to MS-66 and MS-67.....that's tougher to take.

With alot more hits allowed in lower grades, unless you actually count them it's easy to under or overgrade at those levels.

But imagine a classic -- or new -- coin that is an MS-68 or even MS-69. Tough to believe it should be 2 levels lower, even for a rare coin, because the number of hits/nicks/marks has to be so low to get 68 or higher right from the start. You should have to WORK to see marks and stuff because your first natural reaction is to see "Is it a 70 and if not, how many marks ?"

Conversely, it's easy to 'slide' between the AU and MS level. Lots more nicks allowed....so unless you actually count or see something that clearly indicates it should be in the AU category (some big demerits) or the MS (some clear positives), you can easily go back-and-forth on some coins.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

There's lots of real bag marked up 65s that I would not like, but I like the ops.
That's why I was going to guess 65, but didn't get in in time. You got a good one, there.

 

Thanks, I was not sure what to post.

The coin has way more luster in hand it is just hard to photograph it.

 

Goldie, I think you're misunderstanding a little, here. Let me just start with your AU and MS. AU is AU for one reason, circulation wear. That's it. Any abrasions are inconsequential to the grade. Or, in your terminology, "rating." But that's the beginning and end of the inquiry. MS is where you start paying attention to nicks because by definition there's no circulation wear in MS. The lower in MS, usually, the more nicks. AU58 is going to blow away MS60-62 almost every time because it's going to be the less compromised with distracting abrasions.

OK. Your "AU category (some big demerits) or the MS (some clear positives)." Again, you're not really seeing that difference right. Demerits and positives aren't what differentiate those. Circulation wear does that. Thus, again, a lot of us prefer AUs over the low MS, especially the high AUs, namely, the AU58s, because, but for the almost imperceptible wear, they're that much more eye-appealing.

Finally, this is conditioned on condition-grading, or, "technical grading." Market grading, especially the way the TPGs do it, who knows? There's no reason about it. Just money. If, in the perception of the TPGs, the market is going to pay MS61 money for the AU58, the AU58 is a market MS61. Real complicated. Lol.

 

65

 

I tried to EDIT but the system evidently has the post locked. So, I'll do it, here. Just to clarify, when an AU58 has nicks, scratches, abrasions, etc., that's post-mint damage, as it happened post the mint. If the degree of same isn't that extreme, it will be passed off, and the coin will grade. Marketwise, it may "net grade." The point is, though, nicks, scratches, abrasions, etc. aren't criteria in circulated grades, only in uncirculated, i.e., MS grades. Different grading criteria, in other words, when you cross the threshold to uncirculated. Hope this helps.

 

I think I get it. It's a bit confusing, but I think you explained how the standards change once you go from UNC/MS to Circulated or About Uncirculated.

From my perspective, if a coin was circulated for a few days but handled IMMACULATELY and had only a slight loss of luster and a few nicks...that is seemingly better than a coin that was uncirculated but has dozens of bag marks and some deep cuts from other coins across the devices.

But I guess not.

 

Before I read through the thread, incase the grade has been posted, I'll guess NGC gave it a 64. I would agree if they did.

 

OK, just one more thing. "Circulated" and "Uncirculated," from a grading perspective, are terms of art, and shouldn't be taken literally. They just mean the presence or absence of circulation wear on the face of the coin. Thus, it doesn't matter if you got the coin at the McDonald's drive-up window, or direct from the Mint. Just look at the coin, keep your eyes on the coin, and don't let your mind's eye wander off the coin. That's how you grade.

 

I think this is one of the reasons there are so many 'sliders' between the lower-end MS and high-end AU.

I agree there are some coins that in AU-58 look better than MS-60 or MS-61....but to say that "AU-58 is going to blow away MS-60-62 almost every time" is very confusing to non-experts, I think.

I understand what you are saying and I see the basis for that statement and yet it seems counterintuitive.

Got it...at what level does that advantage disappear in your opinon, at the MS-63 level ?

In theory...if taken to its logical conclusion...then we should be seeing good-looking CIRCULATEDS as MS-61's and uncirculated scruffy-looking coins as AU-58's ?

But the inability to consider a CIRCULATED coin as Mint State and the unlikelihood of an UNCIRCULATED coin of falling through the floor of being Mint State (no matter how nicked up) prevents it from falling into the About Uncirculated category. Right ?

I think I got it.

I think........LOL

 

Sure you got it. Just keep falling back on it when things get out of hand. It's the fundamentals.

OK, to the questions. From what I've seen, and there are exceptions, most MS60-61s are dogs compared to AU58s. MS62, a little less so, but not by much. The reason being, to be AU58, it can't have flaws. Or, better said, if it does have flaws, they're, for the most part, innocuous, benign. The reason for that being, by definition, if the coin has circulation wear, which, if it's AU, it does, those flaws, again, are post-mint damage, and, if significant enough, the coin won't grade, or, for the market, the coin will "net grade." Thus, most of the time, the AUs are virtually flawless. When compared to the heavily-flawed MS60-61s, even most MS62s, probably, they're going to kill them in eye-appeal. Why accept paying more for the latter? They crossed that threshold. Being MS, they held up, they're everything the coins are supposed to be.

Getting to the "In theory..." question, yeah, that's right. In fact, that's how I know you "get it." Let me say the thing, there. It's the TPGs would get laughed out of business if they got too carried away with market-bumping AU-58 to MS. That's not to say they don't do it, they do. However, instead of AU58 to MS61, say, it's AU58 to MS64. Again, most of the AU58s are that flawless, that's why. Therefore, in the vernacular, "AU64." I don't know if you've heard that one, yet.

 

65

 

This is why the AU 58 is a much desired coin, in most series. They are often very attractive, much nicer looking then their low level MS 61 or so baggy counterparts, and the wear is very tiny, and generally located on a very high spot,where it is barely noticeable. I have a 1921 AU58 peace dollar that is much more attractive than a MS 62 that I also own, of the same date. I have posted the AU 58 here a few times, and it is a really nice coin. Whereas, some low level MS coins are so baggy, they lose on eye appeal--they just happen to be without circulation.

 

64

 

Good explanation, thanks.

No I haven't....but the next time I goto a coin show or my LCS I am going to check out the same coins in AU58 vs. low-60's MS. Thanks !

 

You're welcome, Gold. This isn't rocket science. It's just a lot of people with vested interests would have you think it is. Don't fall for it. You "get it" because you're asking the right questions in these threads. That's how I know. You keep asking the right questions, you're going to end up finding the right answers.

 

I think that for many coins if the choice is between MS-64 or MS-65 and an AU, the price differential is too great. So collectors move down to the low-60's.

I'll certainly be looking more at AU-58's in some of the more popular series to start seeing the differences better.

 

Probably the financial analyst in me !!

 

MS63 is my guess !

 

Good luck on that one. You better have deep pockets!