Guess the grade #46

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by rlm's cents, Aug 5, 2010.

?

2010- NGC Grade?

Poll closed Aug 10, 2010.

  1. 63

    9 vote(s)
    37.5%

  2. 64

    7 vote(s)
    29.2%

  3. 65

    4 vote(s)
    16.7%

  4. 66

    4 vote(s)
    16.7%

  5. 67

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. 68

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Page 3 of 5
  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Then that book is wrong.
     
    GDJMSP, Aug 9, 2010
    #41 + Quote Reply
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    That is not my understanding:

    http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/f/adjustment_mark.htm

    Effects of Striking on Adjustment Marks

    The weight adjustment filing was primarily done before the coins were struck. When the coin striking actually occurred, the force of the strike would usually obliterate the file marks, especially on smaller and gold coins. Smaller coins came out better, with fewer remaining adjustment marks, because not as much force was needed to ensure that the metal flowed completely against the die surfaces during stirking. Gold coins came out better because gold is a softer metal than silver, so the striking force didn't need to be as strong to obliterate the file marks. Large silver coins such as silver dollars and half dollars didn't fare as well, and adjustment marks are often seen in the fields of early U.S. dollars and halves; occasionally, these file marks appear on the devices themselves.
     
    Leadfoot, Aug 9, 2010
    #42 + Quote Reply
  4. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Leadfoot, Aug 9, 2010
    #43 + Quote Reply
  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Here is PCGS's definition of the term:

    adjustment marks
    Pre-striking file marks seen mainly on gold and silver coins prior to 1840. These removed excess metal from overweight planchets. After 1840 these are seldom seen as the filing was on the rim and was usually obliterated by the striking process.

    http://www.pcgs.com/lingo.chtml
     
    Leadfoot, Aug 9, 2010
    #44 + Quote Reply
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Mike I am well aware of what the general consensus is and what is most commonly found on the internet. However, in the history of minting coins adjusting coins for weight has a very long history. And throughout that history the weight was always checked & adjusted after the coins were struck. This was the practice used for centuries and it is recounted in many, many books.

    Now for the most part there were very, very few US coins who had their weight adjusted past 1821 simply because it was no longer necessary. But there are some few examples up until 1840.

    Now if one considers that the mint employees at the early US mint not only came from Europe but learned their trade in Europe as well, where coins were always adjusted for weight after striking, does it make much sense that they would suddenly change and start adjusting them before striking ? No, it doesn't.

    Then how do we explain the belief that US coins were adjusted after striking ? I think it is pretty simple really. After 1821 when adjusting coins had stopped the method of the practice was forgotten for the most part since it was not needed. And after that period of nearly 30 years the staff at the mint was also replaced. And because they had not been there when coins were commonly adjusted, they were not aware that adjusting was done after striking. So when the rare case arose that a coin needed adjusting, one of them came up with the idea of checking before the coins were struck and they began checking the planchets and doing the adjusting then.

    That is why in today's world what you find on web sites and such is that coins were adjusted before striking. This is what is thought because that was the way it was done at the last before the practice ended all together.

    While I can't sit here a quote titles to you there are many books on US coins that relate this as well - that coins were adjusted after striking. And I have no doubt that some coins were adjusted before striking - but only those at the end of the practice. The majority of those that were ever adjusted were done after striking just like they had been for hundreds and hundreds of years.
     
    GDJMSP, Aug 9, 2010
    #45 + Quote Reply
  7. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Doug, as I understand, they used a file to adjust the weight. Is that correct? i.e. a hard rigid file at least similar to today's files?

     
    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes they did use a file, but a different style of file than most people think of. The ones used to adjust coins had raised points on them instead of horizontal cutting edges like most files of today have.
     
    GDJMSP, Aug 9, 2010
    #47 + Quote Reply
  9. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Straight and flat (in the direction used) though. Correct?
     
    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #48 + Quote Reply
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes. However, once an adjustment had been made it was sometimes necessary to remove even more metal, so the coin was sometimes filed yet again, not always in the same place, or even the same side. So there are some few examples that can have criss- crossed adjustment marks. But in the majority of cases they are straight and parallel.

    Go ahead and make your point Dick, no need to beat around the bush.
     
    GDJMSP, Aug 9, 2010
    #49 + Quote Reply
  11. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I was not beating around the bush. I needed you to confirm that it was a flat file being used. One that cannot reach around the devises.

    Point was that is flat and cannot file the tops of the devices, over the edge of the devises and then onto the field in one line. The only way you can get such a line is to have the planchet adjusted BEFORE it was struck. Such is the case for nearly every listing I found on Heritage (stating that it contained adjustment lines). Here are but 3 examples. Those lines could not possibly have been put on there after striking.
    http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1139&Lot_No=2240
    http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=444&Lot_No=1898
    http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=1946
     

    Attached Files:

    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #50 + Quote Reply
  12. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I really don't know what to say about this coin. Even though I am convinced that the marks are premint, I also believe it should affect the grade. How much is the question. In hand, the marks are MUCH less obvious then in the picture. It is even hard to find the marks on the reverse. The spotting is much more obvious than any of the "scratches". Spotting is almost ubiquitous with modern Lincolns All-in-all, it is really quite mark free. With all this going on, I can only guess. I am going to say 65 IMHO even though most thought lower. NGC says 66. Com se come sa.
     

    Attached Files:

    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #51 + Quote Reply
  13. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    ddoomm1 still the leader.

    Top 10. Columns are rank, name, average, and number of guesses.
    ddoomm1 0.524 23
    Leadfoot 0.565 33
    bahabully 0.590 41
    ldhair 0.658 40
    BadThad 0.659 43
    mark_h 0.667 41
    abe 0.750 13
    Duke Kavanaugh 0.872 41
    tmoneyeagles 0.919 39
    WashQuartJesse 1.000 33
     
    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #52 + Quote Reply
  14. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    I knew this coin would burn some folks.
     
    BadThad, Aug 9, 2010
    #53 + Quote Reply
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I bet I'm closing in on the top ten with my new system.
     
    Marshall, Aug 9, 2010
    #54 + Quote Reply
  16. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Your average is down to 1.568, but your competition has either abandoned guessing or gotten better with you. Numerically, you have made a big improvement, but you standing has hardly moved.
     
    rlm's cents, Aug 9, 2010
    #55 + Quote Reply
  17. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    FWIW, I have started working on using the new format. I am going to overlap them. Anyway, with only 8 scores entered and needing five guesses to average, here are the current standings.

    Top 10. Columns are rank, name, average, and number of guesses.
    1. bahabully 0.125 8
    2. BadThad 0.250 8
    3. Leadfoot 0.250 6
    4. ldhair 0.286 7
    5. ddoomm1 0.500 6
    6. Duke Kavanaugh 0.500 8
    7. mark_h 0.571 7
    8. TopcatCoin 0.625 8
    9. tmoneyeagles 0.833 6
    10. WashQuartJesse 0.833 6
     
    rlm's cents, Aug 10, 2010
    #56 + Quote Reply
  18. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Still 9th! Yes! :D
     
    tmoneyeagles, Aug 10, 2010
    #57 + Quote Reply
  19. bahabully

    bahabully Junior Member

    The new format is obviously superior.... :devil:
     
    bahabully, Aug 10, 2010
    #58 + Quote Reply
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I have to disagree Dick, based on the lines alone, I believe every one of those coins was adjusted post strike.
     
    GDJMSP, Aug 10, 2010
    #59 + Quote Reply
  21. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I have no idea what physics courses you took, but in mine, things the size of files did not do the quantum thing around corners and have metal bent in over one (or both) side of the line they made. Files do not bent like that. Now, the planchet does - when it is minted.
     
    rlm's cents, Aug 10, 2010
    #60 + Quote Reply
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