Guess the Grade 1842 Seated Dollar

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by ddddd, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    That ones easy. F19. Liberty stops it vf. Shield is un-usually nice for liberty wear. IMO
     
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  3. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Doesn't that make it 10 pi? 31.41592654?
     
  4. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Book says Liberty has to be strong for it to qualify as a vf20. Just for my records. Is that strong? Only going by the red book. I like the shield lines. I did want to bump it up to something like 30. But the book is my only help with my guessing. I'LL stay turned
     
  5. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Just wondering, what did you mean by this @V. Kurt Bellman ?
    Is there some thread this references?
     
  6. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Damn. I trust you and kurt. But without the both of you. I'm still under VF. this is tuff. Concerdering. My oldest coin is a 1909 cent
     
  7. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    My new oldest is 4th century B.C.
     
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  8. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Yah, there was a series of grading threads in which it was stated that the dollar and half dollar standards were not consistent with each other on Seated coins. I don't doubt that, but it still blows my mind.
     
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  9. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    I can't speak for him, but I would guess he's comparing the grading standards for the Liberty Seated Half Dollar to those of the Liberty Seated Dollar. The standards are different because the designs, hubs, and shapes are different. You can't use a one size fits all "standard" to grade every denomination of Liberty Seated (half dime, dime, quarter, half dollar, dollar), because every series has a slightly different design (even if they have the same image).

    The same applies to other series that have the same image, but very different realities (such as Barber, or Capped Bust). The denominations all look similar, but in execution, there are differences.

    I'm not sure what you are using to grade this coin, but compare the images posted here to the images in PCGS' free, online "Photograde" tool: https://www.pcgs.com/photograde/

    I find this site extremely useful when trying to grade series that I don't specialize in.
     
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  10. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    See that what i like about you. None of that But stuff
     
  11. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    I refuse to play the Photograde game. Never have, never will. I only use text descriptions, ... EXCLUSIVELY. EVERY attempt that I have ever made to use photos to grade coins was somewhere less than completely useless.
     
  12. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Just not very fine. Leaving myself some room. Hey i dont read everyone guessing. Then make one. I guess then read on. I'm not to be affraid to be wrong. But i do hit a few. Pretty good for a girl huh. Lol
     
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  13. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    A picture is worth a thousand words! You can have text descriptions all day long, but I think a photo comparison is far more useful.

    So you don't like the Ruddy book "Photograde", or the ANA grading guide, or any of those sorts of books that show all the series in various grades? The site I linked has no text description, but the books do. (You can disagree about which one is the most accurate, or has the standards you most agree with, of course).

    I think it is an incredibly valuable tool. I'm not sure it's the "end all, be all", but if I don't know how to grade a Buffalo nickel, seeing pictures of it in F, VF, and EF is going to be far more useful than some words about some blasted horn and feathers.

    If you don't like grading by comparing to photographs, how would you propose we teach people to grade series they are unfamiliar with?
     
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  14. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Oh now you tell me. Nah. That really didnt sway me. But what the hell. We did miss you
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  15. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Guessing cleaned too
     
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  16. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    In person, in a classroom setting with actual coins, the way I learned. You have surmised correctly. After actual coins in the hand, I prefer detailed text, with photographs the LEAST desirable option.
     
  17. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Well now, that would be ideal.

    But that's also highly impractical for the vast majority of people.

    So, for everyone else, what would you recommend?
     
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  18. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Make it possible and practical. It's worth it. Make the commitment. I did, and I am a man of extraordinarily modest means. I flew 1200 miles to pay to take the course, 2400 round trip. It's why they have Southwest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  19. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Ian Russel estimated in 2015 that there were 10 million coin collectors in the US. You think they can all fly to coin-Mecca and learn grading from the prophets? That is completely unrealistic. There aren't enough coin clubs in America with knowledgeable enough instructors to teach that many people to accurately grade all series. And that's just in their hometowns, without travelling. Even if you did have an adequate class, knowledge retention is going to fade over time - you may know the method, but not remember the details. You need some sort of reference or guide to refer back to for the details.

    I'm sure even you must use some sort of grading reference? Or did that class you took years ago teach you every detail of every grade of every series such that you can instantly grade every coin with no consulting of any reference? If so, what sort of class did you take, and where can I sign up?

    My (somewhat sarcastic) point is, the grading guides are a valuable resource. Sure, you need to have an understanding of the basics, but even if you know that you should look at the Liberty ribbon on the shield of the Liberty Seated series, you need to know exactly how that ribbon looks on each denomination for each grade. Because yes, each denomination is going to be graded differently.

    While a hands on class may be the best way to learn how to grade, it is neither possible nor practical to have every collector attend. Of the 48,809 CoinTalk members, how many do you think would be able (or willing) to attend a class like that? Surely not nearly as many as would use a free chart on the PCGS website, or as many as would buy a book.
     
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  20. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    I am completely and utterly sympathetic to a lack of ABILITY to do so, so do what you must as a substitute. But I have less than zero sympathy for a lack of WILLINGNESS.

    I consider it no different from the infamous guy at Rosemont who collects early 19th century gold yet complains about paying to park.

    I have total disdain for using photos in BOTH directions - both trying to grade a subject coin from a photograph of it, AND using sample photos of known grade coins to choose a grade for a subject coin.

    I've spent the MAJORITY of my life as a professional in the photography field and the MAJORITY of my avocational life as a numismatist, and I consider them nearly useless to each other.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  21. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    There may be many more willing than are able. By all means, for those able, attend the ANA summer seminar. I'm sure it is fantastic. But far more are able to use a couple of books, a discussion forum, and the guidance of experienced mentors.

    That's why CoinTalk is so valuable - and that's the fundamental philosophical disagreement we've been having for a few weeks now. CoinTalk provides the mentors, provides the forum for discussion, teaching, questioning, and learning. And we can suggest a couple of books and websites to use to learn almost everything you learned at the Summer Seminar. The only thing I can't replicate is the hands-on aspect, which is why I highly recommend everyone attend a local show or coin club, and look at every coin in every dealer's case.

    If you aren't willing to learn, I can't help you. But if you are willing to learn, there are so many more ways to enable you than the single, strict, narrow way that VKB did it. And that's my point.
     
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