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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;Lehigh96, post: 2768346, member: 15309&quot;]Really?&nbsp; There are many members of this forum who despise the TPGs, their method of grading, and hold conservative grading ideology.&nbsp; One needs look no further than the single most vocal member of this forum, the site administrator, Doug.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>I&#039;m happy you listened, researched my claim, and learned.&nbsp; As for the value of these &quot;+&quot; graded coins, only you can decide how much they are worth to you.&nbsp; When you enter the arena of registry quality coins, especially those with impressive rainbow toning, the price guides basically become meaningless.&nbsp; For example, is the coin featured in this thread worth $900?&nbsp; How much is it compared to a generic untoned MS67 worth $100?&nbsp; How much is it compared to an MS68?&nbsp; Each collector must decide for themselves how much these coins are worth.&nbsp; You don&#039;t get the luxury of validation at this level.&nbsp; So how much are these coins worth in your eyes?&nbsp; Remember, there is no right an wrong, only opinion.</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Jefferson%20Nickels%204%20Sale/JN1943-SNGCMS67-2.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Jefferson%20Nickel%20Registry/JN1943-SNGCMS68.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>As Jason and I have told you, both of your points have been hashed and rehashed countless times on this forum and others.&nbsp; If you really want to discuss them again, we can.&nbsp; I told you earlier that adhering to hardened rules regarding grading will result in more unjustly graded coins than the application of market grading that uses a holistic method of grading.&nbsp; With respect to the line between mint state and circulated, you take Doug&#039;s long standing position that wear is wear, it doesn&#039;t matter how it got there.&nbsp; The TPGs don&#039;t take that same position.&nbsp; They will routinely grade coins that display cabinet/roll friction on the high points of the design and grade those coins as mint state.&nbsp; Take Saint Gaudens Double Eagles for example, almost every single Saint in existence has some measure of high point friction.&nbsp; By your standard, there would be no mint state examples, and every Saint that currently resides in a mint state holder would have the exact same grade:&nbsp; AU58.&nbsp; Is that fair?&nbsp; Does that give an accurate representation of the value of the coins?&nbsp; I don&#039;t really want to get into a debate about the grading of Saints because I&#039;m still emotionally drained from arguing this same point with Doug 5 years ago.&nbsp; If you would like to read the debate, it can be found here.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/totally-confused-difference-between-proof-and-ms.213884/" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/totally-confused-difference-between-proof-and-ms.213884/">totally confused. difference between proof and ms?</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Don&#039;t worry, the title of the thread does not have much to do with the subsequent discussion.</p><p><br /></p><p>I would like to address your analogy though, as it perfectly illustrates the position of the TPG.&nbsp; You state that a car can&#039;t have a full tank of gas after driving it 10 miles.&nbsp; When you filled the gas tank, could you add one more drop of gas without the tank overflowing?&nbsp; How about another quarter gallon? Half gallon?&nbsp; The point is that the tank isn&#039;t really full, we just consider it full.&nbsp; And where do you draw the line of what constitutes a full tank?&nbsp; That is exactly what the TPGs do with respect to the issues that you are raising.&nbsp; They simply draw the line in a different place than you do.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Here is the problem, you say that you have seen &quot;cleaned&quot; coins in problem free holders.&nbsp; My response is, of course you have.&nbsp; The TPGs don&#039;t have a rule that a cleaned coin must be considered a problem coin, and neither do you.&nbsp; The TPGs state quite clearly that a coin can&#039;t be &quot;harshly&quot; cleaned.&nbsp; That is much different than being cleaned.&nbsp; After all, if you submerge a coin in acetone to remove organic material from the coin, you have cleaned it.&nbsp; If you submerge a coin in an acid based dip, you have cleaned the coin.&nbsp; And while acetone might not change the coin at all, dipping a coin strips the outer layers of metal right off the surface of the coin.&nbsp; And while dipping certainly changes the surface of the coin, it is still not deemed a &quot;harsh&quot; cleaning method by the numismatic community.&nbsp; So that leads us to mechanical cleaning which typically leaves the coin damaged in the form of hairlines or worse.&nbsp; But what if an old AU coin was lightly cleaned so that the hairlines imparted on the coin were indecipherable from those caused by light circulation?&nbsp; You see where I am going?&nbsp; A light mechanical cleaning can still be deemed market acceptable by the TPGs.&nbsp; Now, are there coins that are harshly cleaned that end up in TPG plastic?&nbsp; Of course there are, and you are right to complain about harshly cleaned coins in TPG plastic.&nbsp; The real problem is what constitutes &quot;harshly?&quot;&nbsp; What constitutes circulation wear?&nbsp; What constitutes a &quot;full&quot; tank of gas?</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>And in this paragraph, you actually admit that there are levels of cleaning that you are willing to accept as problem free.&nbsp; We can argue all day about individual coins that reside in TPG plastic, but once you accept that they simply draw the line in a different place than you do, you will then be in a position to release your frustrations.</p><p><br /></p><p>And while you might have a problem with counterstamps or chopmarks, my guess is that most collectors of a significant rarity like an 1804 Silver Dollar would not have that same reservation.&nbsp; In fact, the counterstamp would then serve to bolster the originality of the coin.&nbsp; Aren&#039;t the Brasher Dubloons counterstamped with his initials?&nbsp; Again, this whole discussion is about where we draw the lines of market acceptability.&nbsp; If your lines are different, then simply don&#039;t buy the coins that don&#039;t meet your standards.&nbsp; That is what the rest of us do![/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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