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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;Lehigh96, post: 1598823, member: 15309&quot;]Yes, there are indicators.&nbsp; The two that the TPG&#039;s use are the appearance of friction itself and the absence of friction outside the the high points.&nbsp; Unlike two coins rubbing together, circulation wear occurs when handled by peoples hands.&nbsp; This contact touches more than just the high points and usually imparts noticeable friction in the fields as well as on the high points of the devices.&nbsp; Furthermore, the dirt and oil from human contact will cause the wear to appear dull and grey whereas the friction caused by coin to coin contact retains a silver/shiny appearance. </p><p><br /></p><p>Now is it possible for a coin to obtain trace high point wear through minimal circulation where the cause is not from human hands, such as a table or countertop.&nbsp; Certainly it is possible, the exception to the rule to be sure, but possible.&nbsp; And it would be these coins that would readily be mistaken by the TPG&#039;s as having roll friction and graded mint state.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Well I guess we will need a professional grader to solve this debate.&nbsp; I think the logistics involved in having every grader revisit every coin they grade that is not in agreement with the other graders would be logistically impossible for the TPG&#039;s to retain their necessary put through rate.&nbsp; But in answer to your question, I don&#039;t think most people would have any problem if they knew that a coin that was an MS63/64 liner was graded differently by some of the assigned graders.&nbsp; I know I wouldn&#039;t.&nbsp; Furthermore, going back to brow beat a grader into acquiescence of the other graders opinion does nothing to increase my trust level, rather it does the exact opposite.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><br /></p><p>It isn&#039;t desperation or blind faith, despite your typical histrionics to get people to believe you.&nbsp; The fact is that you have in you very own words in this post contradicted yourself.&nbsp; Earlier you said that &quot;It&#039;s because light wear on the high points is nothing more than breaks in the luster.&quot;&nbsp; That would mean that any luster break, even those found in the fields of a Morgan Dollar would constitute wear.&nbsp; But you consider those luster breaks the result of coin on coin contact.&nbsp; How can you prove that every luster break on every Morgan Dollar was the result of coin to coin contact?&nbsp; The answer is that you can&#039;t, but it doesn&#039;t stop you from accepting the break in luster and still consider the coin mint state.</p><p><br /></p><p>And when I say that you ignore roll friction, I mean that you ignore the fact that there are coins that never saw any circulation that under your method of grading would be graded AU.&nbsp; How is that any different than calling a coin that saw circulation mint state?&nbsp; The answer is that there is no difference.&nbsp; You just like to hide behind the antiquated system of grading that says &quot;wear is wear&quot; but doesn&#039;t adequately address things like roll friction.&nbsp; And while there may be some other elderly collectors who are just as stubborn and unwilling to accept change as you, it doesn&#039;t change the fact that the numismatic community accepts the way that the TPG&#039;s have decided to deal with the problem of roll friction.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Yes, sealed bank bags of St Gaudens did exist.&nbsp; And for you to try to tell the good members of this forum that all of the bags of St Gaudens were turned into the government and that only a few were sent to Europe is disgraceful.&nbsp; The fact is that thousands of bags were sent to European and South &amp; Central American Banks long before 1933.&nbsp; The Wells Fargo Hoard of 1908 Saint Gaudens Double Eagles consisted of over 19,000 Saints that were stored in such bags.&nbsp; And yes, some of those coins exhibit high point wear consistent with what you would see from roll friction.&nbsp; So what happened Doug?&nbsp; Did the guy at the mint play with them before putting them in the bags?&nbsp; The relief of Saints is so different than that of Morgan Dollars that there is no way to compare what would happen when they are placed into bags.&nbsp; But the evidence is clear, the bags were opened, and some of the coins had high point friction.</p><p><br /></p><p>You like to harken back to &quot;what the TPG&#039;s are trying to do.&quot;&nbsp; I have come to the conclusion that you don&#039;t have a clue as to what the TPG&#039;s are trying to do.&nbsp; I have tried to explain this to you many times before.&nbsp; All the TPG&#039;s are trying to do is differentiate the grade and value between these two coins.</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Roll%20Friction/Saint1908NGC.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Roll%20Friction/Saint1908PCGS_zps2ada6cd2.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>They both exhibit high point friction on the knee.&nbsp; Under your grading system, they are both AU58.&nbsp; The general collecting public is NOT OKAY with that.&nbsp; There is a very real and discernable difference in quality between these two coins and they should not and will not be valued the same.&nbsp; Therefore, the TPG&#039;s can&#039;t grade them the same.&nbsp; Now if this problem was limited to just these two coins, it wouldn&#039;t be a problem.&nbsp; But when just about every coin in the series exhibits the same type of friction, simply saying &quot;wear is wear&quot; is not an acceptable solution.</p><p><br /></p><p>Do you get it now?&nbsp; Finally?[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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