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Message:: [QUOTE="GDJMSP, post: 1597930, member: 112"]Paul I readily agree that there is subjectivity between any 2 people (assuming they both know how to grade) who grade the same coin. But the vast majority of the time when those 2 people differ in what they think the coin should be graded they will differ by 1 point either direction. It's going to be a truly rare occasion when one says 58 and the other 64 or 65. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, I've seen it happen. But it doesn't happen very often. But with the TPGs things are different when it comes to subjectivity. And they are different for a reason. With NGC there are 3 graders, and a finalizer, who all have to agree on the grade. With PCGS, there are 2 graders, and a finalizer, who all have to agree on the grade. Do you know why they do that ? They do it to remove subjectivity. Grading by committee by its very nature takes individual subjectivity out of the equation. As for your comments about how or why this particular coin was assigned a 58, I don't know. Maybe it's because the wear was so obvious to them in hand that they felt they had to grade it 58. Among us, you're the only person who has seen the coin in hand, and you obviously believe they under-graded the coin. Like I said, I guess we'll see what happens when it comes back. Regardless of that, my opinion won't change. I have absolutely no doubt that you are correct, that there are graders who personally agree with me. You play poker Paul, what are the odds that 4 of them who agree with me would all just happen to be together at the same time and that all 4 of them would all agree on the same grade that I would assign - unless that coin really was worthy of that grade ?  Yes, that has always been my point because you, nor me, nor anybody else, can tell the difference between wear caused by roll friction, album friction, or any kind of friction, because there is no difference. Wear is wear ! It all looks exactly the same because it is all exactly same. With coins, the issue of wear is similar to how it is with toning. The TPGs know for a fact that they cannot prove one way or the other that the toning is NT or AT - so they guess. Same thing with wear, the TPGs know for a fact that they cannot prove that the wear was caused by roll friction or from the coin sliding around on a counter top as a result of it being used in circulation - so they guess. And just like it is with toning, people are either willing to accept their guess or they are not. But there is one major difference between wear and toning. The very definition of MS states that there can be no wear on a coin. If a coin has wear, then it is not MS. I think everybody here will accept that if a coin is in the change drawer at a grocery store, or in the change tray at a bank, that coin is absolutely in circulation. But, if when you look at that coin, and that coin has no wear on it, then that coin can correctly and accurately be graded as MS. And if you send that coin in to the TPG then the TPG will grade that coin as MS as well. But, if you were the one at the grocery store Paul and you got the coin back in change, and you saw that the coin had light wear on it. But something about the coin made it valuable, a variety, a doubled die, anything, and you saw that. So you sent the coin into the TPG, and they graded the coin as MS - relying on the explanation that the wear was caused by roll friction. What would you think Paul ? Would you be willing to accept the TPGs grade, when you knew for certain that they were wrong ? Well that's what you are doing when you accept their guess. Me ? I'm not willing to accept that. And neither should anybody else, unless of course you are willing to throw the definition of MS out the window and just ignore it.[/QUOTE]

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