GTG Bust Half

A gentle reminder that the coin's first showing in the OP's original post did not show the ICG holder or the grade. And most of us proffered our GTG opinion before the coin's TPG holder and grade was revealed. Although the OP did say the coin was graded by ICG.

 

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True that! I stand corrected. I just saw the image of the slab front and label when I was summoned to the thread.

That's where the image of the reverse that I asked for was posted.

I would have guessed VF-20, Flat Strike from just the original image in the OP.

Thanks.

PS Now you guys got me to VF-20, Flat Strike but that's as far as I'll get pulled.

 

I appreciate the discussion, CT. I tried to get a picture of an 1808 I have in PCGS VF20, and put it with the coin we are discussing. Maybe the picture is not as sharp, I tried. More discussion? I think this demonstrates the challenges of grading this series.

 

If the 1808 is a solid VF20, then the 1807 should grade slightly higher. Let’s hope @longshot is going to crack her out and submit her again.

 

When I look at one of these, I examine the detail in the area from the bottom point of the shield to the bottom of the stem and from the claw to the leaves. Generally, the amount of detail in this area will match the grade. I would bet money that PCGS or NGC would grade the ICG coin (under-graded IMO) VF-20.

 

Some in-hand observations...
The 07 has luster in the lettering and crevices. In fact, there is a solid bar of luster along the stars, but it doesn't show well in the pics. I see none on the 08, but it has dark toning in some of those areas.
The stars and rims are much better on the 07.
Imo, the 08 has a bit more of an "old light cleaning" look.
Obviously the wing detail, which draws the eye, is better on the 08.

 

@ddddd and @Insider , thank you both for your explanations and illustrations of net grading!

 

@ddddd and @Insider , may I ask another question, which I'll state through an example? Let's say there are no issues relating to cleaning, damaged rim, or corrosion. But the obverse is a 40 and the reverse is a 30. The grader assigns an average grade of 35. Is that also considered net grading? Or is averaging the obverse and reverse a normal practice and considered straight grading.

(Apologies to other readers for going slightly off topic.)

 

That's just normal grading. Both sides have to be accounted for when giving a grade to the coin (with the obverse often having a higher impact on the final grade). Note that in the 1980s there were companies, including Anacs, that gave a grade for each side (but this isn't done any longer by the grading services).

Example shown from this thread
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/anacs-photo-certification.338396/

 

Some teach that the obverse is worth 60% or more of the grade. I wish we still had split grading. I'd rather own a CC dollar graded MS-63/68 than the same coin graded today as just MS-63!

Is a coin graded MS-63 actually:

63/63? or...
63/64
63/65
63/66
63/67
63/68
63/69

 

Alot of ware. I'll pass. Don't want to guess

 

Thanks for all the input.
Insider PM'd me. The coin is going back for review. As a side note, I had sent a variety of other coins, US and world, in this submission and this was the only coin I had a problem with the grade given.

 

If u like ICG. go with it. Just take it to your next coin show and ask a few nummies. Do a little work before you send in.

 

Glad to hear that. But. To be totally honest. Wasn't seeing the reverse saving this coin in any way. Glad insider got involved. Lucky duck

 

Was wonder what the hell. Went back to. Orginal post # 1. Only ICG was mentioned. Thanks. I more better now

 

Now im up to speed. .

 

Sounds like a Happy End

 

This coin looks like every VF-20/25 1807/1808 Bust Half I have ever handled. My personal grade is VF-25

 

Yes, and if you get away from the center of the reverse, you will find VF levels of detail. This is the same way on the obverse (stars, drapery, etc.). When such a disparity exists, it can generally be assumed to be weakly struck.

Also, the head of the eagle has a somewhat rounded appearance on the edges, which is indicative of a weak strike

Well, if you show someone the obverse of an MS-68 morgan and they say VG, I think we can all say that VG grade is stupid.

PCGS Photograde is essentially useless for CBHs. They don’t take into account strike variations nor the different bust/eagle styles used between 1807 and 1836.

I think we both know that it is almost certainly residual mint luster. On CBHs, the luster remained around the devices well into the VF range, and (rarely) sometimes into the F range.

Yes, and that really isn’t a reason to net it down 10 points or so.

Yes.

Namely who their employer is.

 

TypeCoin971793, posted: "Yes, and if you get away from the center of the reverse, you will find VF levels of detail. This is the same way on the obverse (stars, drapery, etc.). When such a disparity exists, it can generally be assumed to be weakly struck. Also, the head of the eagle has a somewhat rounded appearance on the edges, which is indicative of a weak strike."

I guess you read my post. "When I look at one of these, I examine the detail in the area from the bottom point of the shield to the bottom of the stem and from the claw to the leaves. Generally, the amount of detail in this area will match the grade."

"Well, if you show someone the obverse of an MS-68 morgan and they say VG, I think we can all say that VG grade is stupid."

No, the person is either ignorant or blind.

"PCGS Photograde is essentially useless for CBHs. They don’t take into account strike variations nor the different bust/eagle styles used between 1807 and 1836."

I disagree. It is a guide for the ignorant and blind and using it will get you close to a suitable grade.

"I think we both know that it is almost certainly residual mint luster. On CBHs, the luster remained around the devices well into the VF range, and (rarely) sometimes into the F range."

Probably, but best to see the coin in hand as an unnatural surface can look like luster in an image. When I learned to grade, a coin in Fine could have luster in the protected areas. These days, a coin with any luster remaining is graded XF by many!

"Yes, and that really isn’t a reason to net it down 10 points or so."

I have been told that ALL GRADING IS NET GRADING! You start at MS and work down the scale. TPGS's say that they assign values to coins by the grade on the label. Unfortunately, coins with flat or weak strikes lose value.

Namely who their employer is."

Unfortunately that MAY BE one of the variables for some professional graders. However, I've been extremely lucky to be immune from that kind of pressure. I grade coins, others have the option to agree or disagree. As I wrote above, I've NEVER seen any grading rules at any TPGS I've worked for. Oh, there was one RULE that has virtually become obsolete over the years: "MS-64 is the highest grade given for a weakly struck coin."