GTG: 1797 Tuppence

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Coinsandmedals, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    The grades from my most recent NGC submission posted today, and I thought a GTG thread would be fun. Please feel free to submit your opinions without sparing my feelings. I am curious to see what you all think.

    1797 2 Pence raw Take 1 Obv..JPG 1797 2 Pence Raw Take 1 Rev..JPG
     
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  3. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    This is a beauty! I'm going with MS65
     
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  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    At least MS65
     
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  5. QuintupleSovereign

    QuintupleSovereign Well-Known Member

  6. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    I almost went with this, I was really stuck between 65bn and 66bn. It was a toss up for me.
     
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  7. ddddd

    ddddd Member

  8. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Active Member

    MS 65 BN but I wouldn’t be shocked with that strike if it was a proof (which are known and have been grade by NGC) but doesn’t quite look right. Still super nice coin
     
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  9. kSigSteve

    kSigSteve Active Member

    Nice coin. 65+

    That strike on the date is super cool. That thing is hammered!
     
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  10. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & odd Moderator

    What he said. Exactly what he said.

    W...O...W.
     
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  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & odd Moderator

    Psst! Hey, why don't y'all distract him - make a weird noise or a funny face or somethin' - so he'll turn his back and I can snatch that thing, eh? ;)

    Color me green with envy. With the possible exception of a raw Red MS example I held in my quivering palm at the Spink table once upon a time at the FUN show, I think that might be the nicest Cartwheel 2d I've ever seen.
     
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  12. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I'm going 64 only because I know that NGC and others are hesitant to give high grades on these.
     
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  13. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    Wow, there has been a decent amount of responses so far! I will let this go until tonight, and then I will post the grade NGC assigned and my thoughts on the coin.

    @serdogthehound Including the restrikes, there are only 17 recognized proof varieties of the Twopence. This particular piece is plain copper (i.e., not gold, silver, bronzed, or gilt) and is of standard-thickness (not struck on a thin flan), which effectively rules out 14 of those varieties. The fact that there are only two waves present under Britannia eliminates two more varieties. Unfortunately, this particular example does not meet any of the key diagnostics of the remaining variety, so I do not doubt that it is a standard business strike.

    @lordmarcovan I will have to keep a close eye on you! :)
     
  14. jaytant

    jaytant Member

    I’ll go 64BN
     
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  15. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    ...so, a thin flan would only be 1/2 inch thick... :)
     
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  16. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    This made me chuckle! :) These coins are just entirely too massive (40 mm diameter, typically 5 mm thick, and two ounces heavy). No wonder they nearly destroyed the Soho Mint.
     
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  17. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Active Member

    i brought one off EBay in high school . Sadly it was so heavy it broken the shipping envelope and fell out somewhere between So have experience of them being too heavy and big :(
    Crazy cool coins
     
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  18. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    Wow, that would be such a disappointment. Just imagine the confusion of whoever happened to find it. This isn't exactly a coin that the average person will stumble upon regularly.
     
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  19. Bradley Trotter

    Bradley Trotter Well-Known Member

    MS-65

    That is a beautiful coin you have posted @Coinsandmedals. A problem-free cartwheel Twopence is undoubtedly a rare sight. I'm sure you must be proud to have it in your collection.
     
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  20. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    My grade: MS-64+

    NGC grade: MS-63

    Over the last few years, I have submitted somewhere in the vicinity of a couple hundred English and Irish copper pieces to NGC. In the beginning, I tended to be entirely too conservative, often missing the mark by two grade points or so; however, more recently, I have been consistent within a point. I still tend to shy on the conservative side, but that makes for some pleasant surprises when the grades come back from NGC. In part, this pattern is what makes the current coin such an odd exception. I have viewed hundreds of these coins in mint state (both graded and raw) over the years, and more often than not, they are marred with significant contact marks, rim bumps, uneven color, and weak strikes. In my experience, it is easy enough to find an example that excels in one of these areas but usually falls short in others.

    I took my time to find an example that had minimal contact marks/rim bumps, even color, and a solid strike. This is one of the nicest Twopence pieces that I have come across. There are a handful of minor contact marks on the obverse (e.g., on his throat, in the field in front of his drapery, on the rim between the ”E” and ”X”), none of which are distracting on a relatively heavy 40mm coin. The color and strike are sublime for the series, and except for an insignificant rim bump at 7 o’clock, the edges are smooth as can be. Looking over the NGC census, the average uncirculated grade for this series is MS-63 (41 in this grade), but in my opinion, there isn’t anything ordinary about this particular example. I think this coin would be a premium example in a 64 holder (23 in this grade), and I thought it had a strong chance at a 65 (only 3 with none higher). For those of you interested, here are a few NGC graded examples that sold recently at Heritage.

    MS-63 BN

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-brit.../231830-64216.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-brit.../a/3053-36847.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

    MS-64 BN
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/great-britain-george-iii-cartwheel-2-pence-1797-soho-ms64-brown-ngc-/a/3072-36575.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-brit.../a/3067-31650.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

    MS-65 BN
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-brit.../a/3051-32187.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

    I may not agree with NGC’s assessment, but the fact the coin is encapsulated and protected for future enjoyment is far more important to me then the number on the label.
     
  21. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Nice coin!
     
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