Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Greeks, Wolves, and Cleopatra?
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Sulla80, post: 4612696, member: 99456"][ATTACH=full]1142420[/ATTACH]<font size="2"><a href="http://www.publicdomainfiles.com/show_file.php?id=13478242814252" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.publicdomainfiles.com/show_file.php?id=13478242814252" rel="nofollow">Public Domain Image</a></font></p><p>Some of my favorite coins have been opportunistic rather than the result of careful planning. This coin is in that category, a quick search for price comparison, the price was right, the look intriguing: a prone wolf, an incuse "<b>A</b>" reverse, light wear, decent strike and great toning. I hadn’t noticed one of these before, and decided to bid. Now I have questions and the hope that CT members will be able to add to my incomplete picture. [ATTACH=full]1142416[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="4"><b>Argolis, Argos,</b> circa 90-50 BC, AR Triobol, Hieron (IEPΩNOΣ), magistrate</font></p><p><font size="4"><b>Obv:</b> Forepart of wolf at bay left </font></p><p><font size="4"><b>Rev: </b>Large A; I-E/P-Ω/NO-Σ in three lines around; below crossbar, eagle standing right on thunderbolt; all within incuse square</font></p><p><font size="4"><b>Size: </b>14mm 2.43g</font></p><p><font size="4"><b>Ref:</b> BCD Peloponnesos 1177-8</font></p><p><br /></p><p><b>A few things I can share about this coin:</b> it comes from Argos, Argolis on the Peloponnese peninsula:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1142414[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="2"><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_peloponnese.svg" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_peloponnese.svg" rel="nofollow">modified map from Wikipedia under CC 3.0 License</a></font></p><p><br /></p><p>Plutarch tells of a legend that provides at least one explanation for the wolf on these coins - Apollo Lyceius the patron god of the city:</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><font size="4">"...Danaüs first landed in the country, near Pyramia in the district of Thyreatis, and was on his way to Argos, he saw a wolf fighting with a bull; and conceiving that he himself was represented by the wolf (since both were strangers and were attacking the natives), he watched the battle to its end, and when the wolf had prevailed, paid his vows to Apollo Lyceius (the wolf-god), attacked the city, and was victorious, after Gelanor, who was at that time king of Argos, had been driven out by a faction. This, then, was the significance of the dedication." </font></p><p><font size="4">- Plutarch, <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.%20Pyrrh.%2032&lang=original" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.%20Pyrrh.%2032&lang=original" rel="nofollow">Pyrrhus, 32.4</a></font></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Similar coins with wolf and "<b>A</b>" for Argos go back to the very early 5th century BC. The wikipedia describes Argos as "one of the oldest continuously inhibited cities in the world". Argos is where the Argead dynasty originated, which includes Philip II of Macedonia and Alexander "The Great". Although it also mentions a theory that they claimed this origin only to reinforce their Greekness – Appian reinforces this theory:</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><font size="4">"There is an Argos in Peloponnesus, another in Amphilochia, another in Orestea (<u>whence come the Macedonian Argeadæ</u>), and the one on the Ionian sea, said to have been built by Diomedes during his wanderings, -- all these, and every place named Argos in every other country, Seleucus inquired about and avoided."</font></p><p><font size="4">-Appian, <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+10.63&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+10.63&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230" rel="nofollow">Syrian Wars 10.63</a></font></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Then there is an interesting note on <a href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=148645" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=148645" rel="nofollow">a CNG coin</a> of this type referencing a BCD sale from LHS: <i>“It would be interesting to suggest that the eagle on thunderbolt on the reverse of this coin refers to Cleopatra and that this issue, and others similar to it (with the massive wolf on the obverse), ought to be down-dated to the 30s. The fact that this issue definitely seems to have been struck in haste (many of the specimens known to us are mis-struck), might be evidence for this theory, but it unfortunately does not seem to be compelling at this time.”</i></p><p><br /></p><p><b>A few questions:</b></p><ul> <li><b>Cleopatra VII?</b> Is there other evidence for this association? I can find no reference other than this note and can only link to the idea by location to the Battle of Actium, not too far from Argos: ~450km by foot or ~350km by sea. Just coincidence of location, hastily struck coins and an eagle that looks a bit Ptolemaic?</li> <li><b>Denomination?</b> Although this is sometimes called a triobol it is also sometimes called a hemidrachm or even tetraobol? the one very early drachm of this type that I found is 5.6g - this seems unlikely to give me a decent weight comparison for a coin 400 years later. Which is this tri-obol, hemi-drachm, tetrobol or something else? on what evidence?</li> <li><b>Roman Province? </b>was Argolis and Argos part of the Roman province of Achaea at the time 90-50 BC? if so, why is it not labelled this way in auctions?</li> <li><b>Hieron Magistrate?</b> what else can I find on IEPΩNOΣ the magistrate? are there other artifacts that might reference him from Argos?</li> </ul><p>Corrections, answers, and additions are all appreciated. <b>Post your opportunistic purchases, coins with Ptolemaic eagles, wolves, coins of Argos, or anything else you find interesting or entertaining. </b>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Sulla80, post: 4612696, member: 99456"][ATTACH=full]1142420[/ATTACH][SIZE=2][URL='http://www.publicdomainfiles.com/show_file.php?id=13478242814252']Public Domain Image[/URL][/SIZE] Some of my favorite coins have been opportunistic rather than the result of careful planning. This coin is in that category, a quick search for price comparison, the price was right, the look intriguing: a prone wolf, an incuse "[B]A[/B]" reverse, light wear, decent strike and great toning. I hadn’t noticed one of these before, and decided to bid. Now I have questions and the hope that CT members will be able to add to my incomplete picture. [ATTACH=full]1142416[/ATTACH] [SIZE=4][B]Argolis, Argos,[/B] circa 90-50 BC, AR Triobol, Hieron (IEPΩNOΣ), magistrate [B]Obv:[/B] Forepart of wolf at bay left [B]Rev: [/B]Large A; I-E/P-Ω/NO-Σ in three lines around; below crossbar, eagle standing right on thunderbolt; all within incuse square [B]Size: [/B]14mm 2.43g [B]Ref:[/B] BCD Peloponnesos 1177-8[/SIZE] [B]A few things I can share about this coin:[/B] it comes from Argos, Argolis on the Peloponnese peninsula: [ATTACH=full]1142414[/ATTACH] [SIZE=2][URL='https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_peloponnese.svg']modified map from Wikipedia under CC 3.0 License[/URL][/SIZE] Plutarch tells of a legend that provides at least one explanation for the wolf on these coins - Apollo Lyceius the patron god of the city: [INDENT][SIZE=4]"...Danaüs first landed in the country, near Pyramia in the district of Thyreatis, and was on his way to Argos, he saw a wolf fighting with a bull; and conceiving that he himself was represented by the wolf (since both were strangers and were attacking the natives), he watched the battle to its end, and when the wolf had prevailed, paid his vows to Apollo Lyceius (the wolf-god), attacked the city, and was victorious, after Gelanor, who was at that time king of Argos, had been driven out by a faction. This, then, was the significance of the dedication." - Plutarch, [URL='http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.%20Pyrrh.%2032&lang=original']Pyrrhus, 32.4[/URL][/SIZE][/INDENT] Similar coins with wolf and "[B]A[/B]" for Argos go back to the very early 5th century BC. The wikipedia describes Argos as "one of the oldest continuously inhibited cities in the world". Argos is where the Argead dynasty originated, which includes Philip II of Macedonia and Alexander "The Great". Although it also mentions a theory that they claimed this origin only to reinforce their Greekness – Appian reinforces this theory: [INDENT][SIZE=4]"There is an Argos in Peloponnesus, another in Amphilochia, another in Orestea ([U]whence come the Macedonian Argeadæ[/U]), and the one on the Ionian sea, said to have been built by Diomedes during his wanderings, -- all these, and every place named Argos in every other country, Seleucus inquired about and avoided." -Appian, [URL='http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+10.63&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230']Syrian Wars 10.63[/URL][/SIZE][/INDENT] Then there is an interesting note on [URL='https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=148645']a CNG coin[/URL] of this type referencing a BCD sale from LHS: [I]“It would be interesting to suggest that the eagle on thunderbolt on the reverse of this coin refers to Cleopatra and that this issue, and others similar to it (with the massive wolf on the obverse), ought to be down-dated to the 30s. The fact that this issue definitely seems to have been struck in haste (many of the specimens known to us are mis-struck), might be evidence for this theory, but it unfortunately does not seem to be compelling at this time.”[/I] [B]A few questions:[/B] [LIST] [*][B]Cleopatra VII?[/B] Is there other evidence for this association? I can find no reference other than this note and can only link to the idea by location to the Battle of Actium, not too far from Argos: ~450km by foot or ~350km by sea. Just coincidence of location, hastily struck coins and an eagle that looks a bit Ptolemaic? [*][B]Denomination?[/B] Although this is sometimes called a triobol it is also sometimes called a hemidrachm or even tetraobol? the one very early drachm of this type that I found is 5.6g - this seems unlikely to give me a decent weight comparison for a coin 400 years later. Which is this tri-obol, hemi-drachm, tetrobol or something else? on what evidence? [*][B]Roman Province? [/B]was Argolis and Argos part of the Roman province of Achaea at the time 90-50 BC? if so, why is it not labelled this way in auctions? [*][B]Hieron Magistrate?[/B] what else can I find on IEPΩNOΣ the magistrate? are there other artifacts that might reference him from Argos? [/LIST] Corrections, answers, and additions are all appreciated. [B]Post your opportunistic purchases, coins with Ptolemaic eagles, wolves, coins of Argos, or anything else you find interesting or entertaining. [/B][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Greeks, Wolves, and Cleopatra?
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...