Grading? Why bother?

I just hope that when it comes time for me to sell, I am young, 45. That the TPG's haven't saturated the market with unrealistic grades. I like toning and character but I believe they are straying from the basics not what it is but, what they think everybody should accept.

 

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They are fairly "generous" with the really old stuff. Like pre-1840s, especially cents, they tend to give the benefit of the doubt unless it's really bad.

 

I know and even by NGC standards that coin was lucky to get a clean grade.

Whole point was someones blasting their grading then posts that complaining it wasn't higher, yea the problem wasn't with NGC. I don't even like NGC very much but I will defend them against that

 

PCGS is #1 huh?? Maybe #1 in mechanical errors lol

 

Uneducated statements just detract from legit conversations. I guess maybe that is the goal though. The market has shown it for a while now

 

This topic comes round and round again...

I think some need to invent controversy just to get worked up over something. I appreciate that we have TPGs. Even to a non-collector, the simple fact that a coin is in a slab means it cost money to get it in there and it must have some value as a reason to be in that slab. They also ensure that gem coins that are 100, 200+ years old that has made it all this time without a finger print, will now be permanently protected from finger prints (which I find incredibly annoying on otherwise decent coins). At some point, a non-collector would have the opportunity to grab even a MS-67, MS-68 Morgan and reduce it to a 62 in no time not knowing the difference. The slabs are protecting the best of whats out there. Then the permanent label quickly identifies it along with a 3rd party's opinion of a grade which is fairly valuable to me. Especially in the higher grades. They also provide pedigrees for shipwreck coins, hoard coins, etc... There's no other way.

I recently was looking at 1964 Kennedy halves for a type set. They made over 200 million of them! They are so common in MS I'd have to look through hundreds if not thousands to find one that interested me if they were raw.

Instead I wanted to see MS-65, 66 versions which narrowed down the search by a lot. I found a MS-66+ that was toned and jumped on it. Which brings me to the next benefit. We can look at a population report of this coin and see if it makes sense to pay what I did for it.
Ok, NGC has graded only 1300 out of 200+ million, (!) a MS-66. Idk how many got a + but probably not many. The price jumps 6 to 7 times from a 66 to a 67 so a 66+ is gonna go for a little more than a 66. A 66 is kind of the sweet spot and is very impressive as far as regular, MS Kennedys go. There's only 65 graded in MS-67. None higher.
So in addition to more easily locating a Kennedy that really caught my eye, I also have all this data on the side to help with pricing info based on what's available. Without grading, none of this would be possible. A novice collector might sell a MS-67 Kennedy, not realizing how nice it really is compared to what's out there, to someone for a 65 price. A 65 might be sold as a 63. If they were all raw, nothing would stand out. This is just one coin series. I won't even go into recognizing cleaning. I have a dime they labeled as cleaned that I still can't see it but they say it's cleaned so it is what it is....
Dealers probably make a good living off of playing the grading game. I'm not a dealer and it has worked in my favor. So many coins have been manipulated in the old days in order to look better. The flaws need to be emphasized to protect buyers. Beginners really get ripped off during the learning curve IMO and many people probably get ripped off their entire collecting careers if they don't learn. The details grade label itself, although hated, is ALSO valuable. Third party authentication is valuable.

All the stuff out there that stands out from the rest of the pack is probably going to be sent in sooner or later by a collector or dealer, in order to realize the full value of the coin. So what does this say about the rest of what's available that doesn't get sent in? As time goes on , I believe a larger and larger percentage of the highest quality, **original** coins available will be housed in slabs. We're probably already there. I see it as a positive more than something to find fault in.
There will be plenty of common coins left that never get sent in because it simply isn't worth the fee. Handle them all you want. So remind me again why someone in business to sell coins wants to sell a raw "X" as a MS-65 when it may double in price in a MS-66 slab? The average buyer and seller won't know the nuances to determine what bumps a 65 to a 66. There can be anomalies and mistakes, but usually not. Mic drop...

 

Absolutely this. Especially when they think they know best.

 

@baseball21 Why , do you glorify the top two TPG's when the evidence is in your face. What's the benefit in trying to hide their faults?

I think saving a coin from the defaults of a newbie collector isn't a bad thing. I just wish they could pick a standard and not fluctuate so much, Coins aren't the stock market.

 

@Lehigh96 summed it up perfectly in his post. Egos and overestimating ones ability get presented a lot on forums

 

Forgive me for nitpicking at you again. Its Friday and adults like to drink on Friday.
When you turn 21 you can too

 

What a time warp where I’m a teen again

 

It actually got summed up with buy the coin and not the slab.
You have an obvious problem with that!

 

No it didn’t. Buy what you like is much more accurate. That little cutesy saying is just an ego booster when people think they can grade better.

It’s actually quite dumb when you think about it because basically everyone buys coins because they like them. Internet forums are the place where people try and pretend people don’t buy coins because they like them

 

My bad ive been drinking, let me fix my statement.


Forgive me for nitpicking PCGS again. I know you are a paid employee or relative of one.
Its Friday, and since some of us adults have a job, we like to drink on Fridays & Saturdays

There fixed it

 

That’s cute since I’m not and you quoted yourself. But go on

Good luck with the lame personal insults but as was mentioned basically no one posting is a better grader than the TPGs no matter what you think

 

Again your opinion.

 

I think you misunderstood my comment to Doug, and the fact that you did so is evidence of your extreme bias against the TPGs. In that scenario, you think that the coin is "obviously" overgraded. What I was saying to Doug, is that he employs a completely different set of grading rules/criteria than the TPGs. As a result, his grades are routinely 2 grades lower than those of the TPGs. Let me be clear, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE TPGs OVERGRADED THE COINS. On the contrary, I am talking about coins that are graded properly by TPG standards. In that case, you don't simply get to tell a dealer that you think the coin is overgraded because you are using a different set of grading criteria. Now the question for you is, are you doing what Doug is doing? Are you using a different set of grading criteria than the TPGs/

On the subject of overgraded coins, of course there are coins that are overgraded from time to time, and those coins are eligible for the grading guaranty programs. I would submit that the 1917 NGC MS65 SLQ is one such coin. But pointing out one overgraded coin as evidence that the TPGs routinely overgrade is just silly.

 

You just made that up, didn't you? Originality bump? In all my years collecting coins, I have never heard anyone say that. Listen, just because the TPGs net grade coins that have been dipped and don't have original surfaces, that does not mean they give bumps for original surfaces. The coin in question has dark unattractive toning that is approaching terminal, you even said as much. TPGs don't reward coins with unattractive toning, they do that for toning that provides the coin with exceptional eye appeal.

And I don't know what photo you are looking at, but nothing about that photo says "lustrous" to me. That coin is an absolute dog, it doesn't have gem surfaces, gem luster, gem strike, and certainly doesn't have gem eye appeal. Honestly, the coin belongs in a details holder.

As for your comment about how to see marks covered by toning, either divulge it or admit you are blowing smoke. And this better not be the method of using photoshop to turn the photo from color to black & white.

 

Two things, first, what the hell are your talking about? You hope that the "TPGs haven't saturated the market with unrealistic grades?" Is this an admission that you, like Doug, employ completely different standards for grading that result in your grades being several grades lower than those of the TPGs.

Secondly, nobody else in the market is going to care about your hatred of the TPGs. If you expect to extract maximum value from your coins at sale, you had better get all of them graded by the TPGs before you sell. When I buy raw coins with the intention of having them graded, I always bid/offer a price that is commensurate with the grade below what I actually think the coin's grade is. If you attempt to sell your collection raw, you will absolutely lose money.

 

Yes, we both do, because it is a foolish maxim. Imagine the hubris of a collector who thinks his grading skills are so phenomenal that he has become a better grader than the professionals at NGC & PCGS.

How would such a collector know this? Has he ever sent any of his coins to the TPGs for grading and tried to predict what their grade would be? For you see, this is essential. In order to claim that he is a better grader than the TPG graders, he would need to understand their grading methods and be able to predict their results with some measure of accuracy.

Furthermore, if he has never tried to sell any of his coins on the open market, his confidence is founded in the fact that he has never tested it. It is very easy to claim to be an expert grader, and to shun the TPGs, contending that he only buys PQ coins, but until he tries to sell them, he doesn't really know. Truly PQ coins will sell even if raw, but when those coins languish unsold for months or years, will he be able to recognize that his grading confidence was truly unfounded.