Grading Opinions - 1939 Wheat Cent

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by halcyon, Jan 10, 2009.

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  1. Arizona Jack

    Arizona Jack The Lincoln-ator

    Ahhhhhhhh, ok

    45???? I repeat 45??????? I'lll start the CT fund to replace your spectacles :) ( and order me some 14-D's and SVDB's in 45)

    If that were a key date, it would prolly slab in a low MS RB holder. As it is, it is AU. Like you and I have discussed many times Doug, I wish PCGS would avoid the market grading. NGC? Thats an AU anyday.

    In the real world, it's an AU coin.
     
    Arizona Jack, Jan 11, 2009
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    That coin is NO DOUBT mint state to every TPG there is (63 RB would be my guess).

    Some will call that coin circulated because of high point rub, no doubt, but I'll bet that coin never saw a day of circulation -- just a rough life in a roll.
     
    Leadfoot, Jan 11, 2009
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    XF 45? You've oudone yourself this time, scrooge! :)
     
    Leadfoot, Jan 11, 2009
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. snaz

    snaz Registry fever

    I really can't imagine anyone in their right mind grading this an XF 45. That is way to strict...
     
    snaz, Jan 11, 2009
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. Boss

    Boss Coin Hoarder

    I personally don't see any wear from those photos. The reverse PLU and the "O" look like a weak strike. I'd say MS 64 were it not for the dark spots (carbon- someone talked over the coin probably), and the unattractive reverse toning. I can buy these raw from my dealer MS 65 with virtually no problems for around $4-8. You could get a very nice one cheap, but of course getting it out of a roll is much cheaper so not bad.
     
    Boss, Jan 11, 2009
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Did any of you actually read what I said ? I said XF45 would be the technical grade. And I made that comment because of what Jack said. In the 4th post of this thread I gave my opinion of what I think the grade would be using the market grading system - AU55.

    This is a good example that shows that people do not understand the difference between technical grading and market grading. Most think they do - but if asked to actually grade a coin using the two different systems they miss the mark by far. But that is because they don't follow the technical standards.

    If you read the technical standards you will readily notice the differences between XF45, AU50 and AU55 - it is quite clear. And this coin would clearly be graded XF45 because it does not measure up to the higher grade standards.

    ANA technical standard -

    AU55 -
    obv - Only a trace of wear shows on the highest point of the jaw.
    rev - A trace of wear shows on the top of the wheat stalks. Almost all of the mint luster is present.


    This coin clearly does not measure up to that standard. There is light wear on the jaw, light wear on the hair, light wear on the cheek, light wear on the lapel and even light wear on some of the legends. On the reverse there is light wear on the wheat stalks from to to bottom, light wear on the legends and even light wear in the fields.

    Now when you see what the standards are for the lower grades, what I said begins to make sense.

    AU50 -
    obv - Traces of wear show on the cheek and jaw.
    rev - Traces of wear show on the wheat stalks. Three-quarters of the mint luster is present.

    Still doesn't quite measure up now does it ?

    XF45 -
    obv -
    Slight wear shows on the hair above the ear, on the cheek, and at the jaw.
    rev - High points of the wheat stalks are lightly worn, but each line is clearly defined. Half of the mint luster still shows.

    The only difference between XF45 and XF40 is that for XF40 it says - Traces of mint luster still show.

    The coin obviously has more than just traces of mint luster, so it would not meet the lower grade. And it clearly does not measure up to the higher grades, so XF45 would be accurate if using the technical grading system.

    Still think I need new glasses Jack ?

    ps - and by the way, using the technical grading system there are no allowances made for how wear occurs. Whether it occurs inside a roll or coin bag, in somebody's coin cabinet or in a cash drawer - wear is considered to be wear.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 12, 2009
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. davidh

    davidh soloist gnomic

    Why are you surprised that some have called you out on your comments? First you say it would grade AU55, then you say no better than XF45.

    It's all well and good to have opinions, but when you give a short answer, without explanation, you invite negative comments. I've commented on this type of thing before - someone asks a question, someone else gives a terse answer. The original questioner doesn't understand, or others reading chime in to say the first answerer wasn't right because of such and such. And off it goes - three pages of back and forth that could have been avoided if only the first person to answer had given rational reasons for his answer.
     
    davidh, Jan 12, 2009
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    I will chanllenge you on that,

    I would easily be willing to challenge you on this particular coin - heck we might all learn something. Plus, I don't mind being wrong in the least!
    I don't know how we will do it but I am 99% certain this coin is either AU-55 or better with roll rub and if I had to go out on a limb maybe a (not very nice) MS-62, or 3 (would need better photos for that).
    You should know by now that grading is very subjective and full of all types of variables but if there is anyway to do it I will be willing to call your hand on this one with the only reservation being of course I have not seen the coin - so I have no idea how we will do it???
    Yes, there is technical grading, market grading, census grading and about three hundred more type of grading that I am to lazy to list. But I do not grade coins by the book - I grade the coin by the coin because in the long run, that is the only thing that matters.
    Ben Peters,

    Die variety specialist and Lincoln Cent specialist for over 20 years now, and, as y'all may know by now "Home of The Knoxville Coin Show" Best and longest running monthly coin show in the south!
     
    bhp3rd, Jan 12, 2009
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Not that I am agreeing with Doug's grades (because I do not), but you have specifically avoided why he has given 2 different answers and it is clearly (to me) spelled out. The AU55 is market grading and the EF45 is technical grading.
     
    rlm's cents, Jan 12, 2009
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. jazzcoins

    jazzcoins New Member

    Now if you want to get technical about the grade i would give it a MS 60 right in the middle of the grading system.

    The coin has alot of dirt areas I say that;s not all wear the dirt may give
    it that appearance



    The coins luster is all there so I would be a little hesitent on the grade of this coin. I don;t think it's wear.


    I would grade it a MS 60 through since there is dirt and distraction marks oxidation spots on the obverse the reverse looks fine to me,this is one coin you have to see in hand to make a accurate conclusion on the grade

    I really think MS60 would be the fair grade for this baby.

    And GD your way off that this coin would grade a XF 45 since it does have all it;s mint luster.


    Oh by the way nice misplaced 1 in the field above the date I indicated in red TOO BAD IT REALLY ISN"T A ONE JUST KIDDING
    jazzcoins joe
     

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    jazzcoins, Jan 12, 2009
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Thank you, at least somebody is actually reading the posts. Don't know how I could have spelled it out any plainer.

    And Ben, you should know that PCGS will grade coins with rub (light wear) as high as MS67. I do not. The grades I have given are my grades - using two entirely different sets of grading standards. That's why I gave 2 different grades. I have not in this thread ever said what I think NGC or PCGS would grade this coin. Only what I would grade it.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 12, 2009
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    No, I just like to give you a hard time. ;) :D
     
    Leadfoot, Jan 12, 2009
    #32 + Quote Reply
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