Grading According to Age?

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Sam Stone, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    Hopefully I'm in the right place, but if not it doesn't hurt my feelings if a mod needs to move this to a more appropriate abode.

    I have read too many conflicting articles across the internet, and since I know I talk a lot I'll bullet point them in case someone only feels like answering one of the confusing questions I have.
    • If there's a 1900 coin with some defects but still in incredible shape, definition, strike, toning, no toning, etc., will it be graded differently than a 2000 or 2020 coin in identical condition?
    • I have never seen a MS 100 (I'm exaggerating again), or near perfect coins. Are there any perfect coins?
    • And proofs? How can you know the difference between a proof coin that has been released into the wild and a coin with exceptional deep striking (is this cameo/cam)?
    • I sometimes find coins that are what I would call "frosted ". They're not dull, not toned, usually well struck, but look like someone painted it with frost spray paint. Is this a modified coin or do the mints make some this way?
    • I see some just the opposite that look like someone dipped them in reflective/shiny clear polish but they're always 100% perfectly uniform. No missed spots, no globs or places with more shine than any other place on the coin, and no discernable points where it had to be held when it was clear-coated. How or where is this done and is it a good or bad thing?
    • Is the ring around a cent a collar, edge, frog boogers.... ?
    • I see a LOT of the more recent cents missing most or all of the collar/edge/whatever. Is this normal? If they are normal, what happened?
    • I have numerous mangled beyond all recognition cents, and some with cuts, scrapes, abrasions on one or both sides. How can I confidently understand the difference between error coins and after the fact post mint abuse?
    I didn't want to bother anyone with stuph I can research for myself and I've tried finding the answers to these things. But that's the problem. Too many different answers.

    Thanks for any wisdom you are willing to donate. ​
     
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  3. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    coin grading goes up to 70, not 100. Thus you won't see a 100 nor a 71.
    more info ==> https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    If you think it's mangled, more than likely it occurred after the coin was made.
    Coins are made in an assembly line, thus they are all made the same and look the same. Knowing about the Assembly Line process, or minting process, is key to understanding what can and what surely cannot be a minting error.

    But the MINT uses the dies until they are destroyed, so the dies wear out and start looking weird, just like if you were to use your car tires way past time to replace them as the tread wears thin and starts breaking down.

    Of course, after it leaves the assembly line anything, and we mean *anything* can happen to the coin to damage it. Imagine if you had to carry coin insurance like you do with a car to make sure it is kept in perfect shape like a Leased car has to be before turning it in to the next person. Coins are not cared for ... unlike nearly EVERYTHING else you own.

    I'll leave the rest for others ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  4. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    I can help with some of your bullet points.
    • All coins should have the same standard for grading whether it was minted yesterday or last century. Keep in mind though that very early US releases were not minted with modern machining methods so some discrimination seems to be applied to very early stuff.
    • MS70 is the perfect grade. And yes, there are some of those in existence. Mostly modern stuff. I am fortunate to own an MS69 gold commemorative. And the perfection that you witness when you view it is breathtaking.
    • Modern cents do not seem to have the same standards set. But then you have to take into account that the mint is producing these by the billions. So yes, there are a lot of imperfect cents released. That does not necessarily make them mint errors though.
    • When you have a mangled coin you simply have to look at it with a bit of wisdom. In most cases, scratches that occur from damage are incused. Not always, but most of the die breaks, cuds and mint errors you would identify by the imperfection being raised on the surface of the coin rather than incused.
     
  5. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    Hey Sam. It is usually said to stay away from YouTube videos regarding numismatics, but the exception would be to view videos on the minting process and learn as much as you can so you can deduce for yourself whether a coin was a mint error or simply PMD. Also read information on the mints sight as well as other well known sites, such as Wexler's site (http://www.doubleddie.com/1801.html). Hope that helps answer some of your questions.
     
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Yes it will be graded differently. They were made differently, technology is different, even the metal composition is different.

    Yes

    At some point of wear you can't, other times it's a proof only date or there are characteristics on it that only the proof coins had that you can see still to know it was a proof.

    Can be either one depending on the coin in question.
     
  7. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Early American coppers and key dates/varieties get more lenient grading I think
    [/QUOTE]
    • I have never seen a MS 100 (I'm exaggerating again), or near perfect coins. Are there any perfect coins?[/QUOTE]
    MS70 is tops, and there are lots, look on ebay even if not buying.
    [/QUOTE]
    • And proofs? How can you know the difference between a proof coin that has been released into the wild and a coin with exceptional deep striking (is this cameo/cam)?[/QUOTE]
    The hallmark I know for proofs is the squared off edge instead of a chamfer.
    [/QUOTE]
    • I have numerous mangled beyond all recognition cents, and some with cuts, scrapes, abrasions on one or both sides. How can I confidently understand the difference between error coins and after the fact post mint abuse?
    [/QUOTE]
    Tough one, comes with experience, ask here.
     
    Sam Stone likes this.
  8. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    I knew about the MS 70 which I must not have made obvious. My fault. I still can't imagine a "perfect" coin. As uneducated and inexperienced in these things as I am, I can find fault on virtually every coin I see, including photos someone claims is a true MS70. I honestly marvel at serious pics adjudged to be MS 68, 69, and 70 by 3rd party professional grading services. I know the minting process presents multiple opportunities for coins to accumulate nicks, bumps, abrasions, and any number of things for graders to find with their knowledge and equipment. I'm wondering if a perfect coin is the same as finding a unicorn riding on the back of a flying pig chasing a flying saucer through the neighborhood.

    I also understand your very well articulated analogy concerning tire wear, insurance, and the likelihood anyone could find an indisputable coin without blemish of any kind and that coin being the same a year, 2 years, or even a week later. I think what has confused me most is watching YouTube videos, including from the grading services, and hearing there is some allowances per grade, however miniscule. I probably should have asked if there are damaged coins that escape the mints but, because they are unique, they can never conscientiously be acknowledged as pre circulation?

    Thank you again. I want you to know I am aware how much time you've given me and I am thankful. Your honesty is absolutely crucial if I'm ever going to grow and equally appreciated.
     
  9. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    Thank you, Randy. I've seen pics and even have some coins that look like they were executed by a firing squad using tiny little buckshot shotguns. I've paid attention to coins with circular markings that probably match a gumball machine, and I've even found patterns that tell even beginners like myself they were rubbed (cleaned) with an unfortunate choice of sandpaper

    My family laughs at me now because I want to see every coin that crosses the front door of our house, but in sheer numbers that adds up to a fair amount of looking. I've been accused of being creative, so I can envision things that could have caused almost every goober I see. But there are some that could possibly been ambushed before leaving the mint or any manner of bad luck could have occurred afterwards. I suspect that must mean there are a few that can never definitively be declared either way. What is most intriguing to me are the ones I have no life experience that explains what I'm looking at. More experienced folks may be able to say "I've seen that before," and "this is what happened." When I'm feeling a little better I'll pick a few I don't understand and ask if you guys can explain them.

    Thanks again, Randy. I'm fortunate to have folks like you and Mr. Claws helping.
     
    Randy Abercrombie likes this.
  10. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    Hello again, Mr. Mountain. Today is turning into a less than optimal day so I should have time to take your recommendations and see how far I can get. However, if I forget it by tomorrow please be gentle. My wife has a rubber mallet she keeps on MY nightstand for such lapses in memory.

    Thanks again.
     
    Randy Abercrombie likes this.
  11. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    These are good answers. I'll store all I can in my educational process. BTW, you're much more gifted than I am a keeping things shor
     
  12. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    • I have never seen a MS 100 (I'm exaggerating again), or near perfect coins. Are there any perfect coins?[/QUOTE]
    MS70 is tops, and there are lots, look on ebay even if not buying.
    [/QUOTE]
    • And proofs? How can you know the difference between a proof coin that has been released into the wild and a coin with exceptional deep striking (is this cameo/cam)?[/QUOTE]
    The hallmark I know for proofs is the squared off edge instead of a chamfer.
    [/QUOTE]
    • I have numerous mangled beyond all recognition cents, and some with cuts, scrapes, abrasions on one or both sides. How can I confidently understand the difference between error coins and after the fact post mint abuse?
    [/QUOTE]
    Tough one, comes with experience, ask here.[/QUOTE]
    Good stuph as always. Seems I'm running out of gas for today, but I will be looking into your info as soon as I can.

    Thank you for all the patience you've given me across the various forum subjects.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  13. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    For sale on e-bay

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    That's incredible. Do they degrade if you breathe on them?

    Seriously, those things should never come out of their holders, right? I read that even UV sunlight can cause harm and the holders prevent that.

    It gives me an idea, too. For birthday presents, when I could still afford to be goofy, I created an invisible jewelry company and sent invisible 10 karat diamond rings sitting inside an open jewelry box, in turn sealed inside a 5 x 5 inch clear acrylic baseball trophy case. I took a lot of time and dollars to personalize and make them true professional quality. They came with the stamp of approval from the regulatory overview board of Brane Doners, which I also made up. There was a very nice 8 x 10 certificate printed on aged parchment paper which guaranteed the product to be absolutely flawless and as invisible as any jewelry in the world. As a bonus, I added a second gift such as an invisible key to their new Ferrari, an invisible key to their new 15 bath, 22 car garage mansion, invisible Rolexes, etc, depending on what each person would actually want. Finally, if I had time they got a free membership in "Densa-for the rest of us" (a spoof of Mensa) which was also printed on parchment paper. Every person I gave these things to still have their framed certificate or membership on their walls and/or their invisible gift on a mantle somewhere.

    Since so many people on this forum have been so kind, I could dig it all back up and send some MS70 Saint-Gaudens $20 Double Eagle gold pieces as a thank you. Maybe you would rather send an invisible coin to someone else? I could guarantee that no grading service would ever see the slightest flaw in it.

    Is this the right forum to ask which invisible coin would be most valuable?
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  15. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    That is seriously funny. Say, did you invent the pet rock a while back? LOL
     
  16. Sam Stone

    Sam Stone Old, fat, bald, gray, ugly, lazy, and married

    Thanks. Whoever that guy was, he was a genius. I've just been unnormal all my life and unfortunately this is the way I think. I see and hear things differently than most people (no, I don't hear voices in my head). I hear the tiniest mistakes in songs on the radio and I recognize things that may or may not be wrong, but they are different in some manner. I think it helps in a lot more ways than it hurts, except in numismatics. I see things like "In God We Trust" being half a degree off center, or curved. Literally. I can take pictures, load them into a photo app, and there really is a difference. This is most likely why I'm having more trouble with the learning curve because I see all these things and don't have the experience behind me to know what is within acceptable parameters and which ones I should explore. When I look at the websites like Wexler's, Ken Potter's, error-ref.com, etc I almost stroke out again because of information overload. Once pareidolia creeps in, I'm down for the count.

    God blessed me with this 'insight' so He could help thousands of hospice patients when I was still working. That work carried on through all the competitors that sprung up because what we did had never been done before and today every hospice patient in the country gets that specific benefit. When I started the business, no one offered it.

    Here's my biggest problem right this moment. For example, I have some Eisenhower dollars but no matter how hard I try, I can't reliably compare types against all the different guides because I can't seem to focus correctly mentally. I can understand friendly eagle vs mean, nasty, horrible, awful, and ugly eagle. I can see the Cuban islands around Florida, etc., but for some reason my synapses won't let me see the obvious. This is happening with almost every coin I look at. I wish I was exaggerating when I say I can find something wrong or different on every coin I see, but I'm not, and that makes it impossible to hone in on what's important and what isn't. I study and study, I look at high quality pictures from reliable sites, and I get distracted by something new on the next coin I look at. Studying takes forever because one of the worst effects from my stroke is my total inability to read more than a few words or look at 10 to 15 seconds of a video and I reach my limit. Nothing I can do and no meds have helped me.

    I've known this a while, and tried to ask questions that would help me get past this without having to whine, but I guess it is what it is.

    Thank you for your help and patience. I mean it. I really enjoy this stuph, but I'm at a point where I just don't know what to do.

    You guys are all great. You're patient, kind, and do your best to understand. I'm blessed to have come across you, but I can't and won't continue abusing that privilege.

    Going to go stick my head in the oven.

    Nevermind. It's not gas.
     
  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  18. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Sam... I had trouble for years properly grading coins because my brain went into overload when I held the coin. I started having an affair with the coin before I was able to properly study it....... A fellow here on CT suggested to me that I first study a coin “upside down” to prevent me from glazing over and ultimately making poor purchases. And I have to say.... It worked for me. Dealers think I am crazy when I ask to see a coin from their case and immediately turn it upside down. But it sure has helped me to focus on what’s important before I make my purchases... Just a thought.
     
  19. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

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