Grade this 1838 half

Let me rephrase that. When the surface quality is SIGNIFICANTLY altered. The presence of human DNA or bacteria of the surface of the coin would have no appreciable effect on the toning process on a coin.

 

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That's nuts! I'm in complete disagreement. Try this test. Put some hand cream on. Wait an hour or two and pick up a coin between your thumb and finger touching both the obv/rev surfaces. Do you think that may have an affect on how the coin tones? That is an OVERKILL example to make a point. ANY contamination will have an effect on how a surface tones INCLUDING residue from your once sweaty but dry when you touch the coin fingers!

 

Two things will hapen with that example:

1. The oil from the hand cream/finger will seal the surface of the coin and prevent toning. I have seen this several times.

2. The contaminant will react with the surface of the coin to produce a dark area that is to be distinguished from toning. It could etch into the surface and retain the white silvery color. I have seen this several times as well.

When SuperDave and I talk about toning, we are refering to a thin film of Ag2S or Ag2O. Nothing else should be considered toning.

 

I'll agree/disagree with some of this as I've seen some things also. I'll let you and Dave write about thin film interference, color, ugly coins and what can/cannot affect them. Many thanks for the education!

 

Thank you. That was exactly what I was hoping for, and I have to contemplate it for a bit.

 

Much better photo. Take a sharp tooth pick and push off the green debris at 9:30 on the obverse. Er...You may wish to take a sharp toothpick and remove the green deposits in the dentils at 9:30 on the obverse. Then you may wish to touch a Q-tip soaked in acetone on the same area. I'll leave it at that...

 

Idle question regarding the Dollar: Do you consider it reasonable to assume the coin spent a fair amount of time in contact with human skin (being holed), and if so do you feel it had any special effect on how the toning propagated?

If I'm reading your images correctly, the areas of "black" on the coin are less-extensive on the reverse than the obverse which is mostly covered, correct? I've always held that Seated-era coinage toned while still circulating, and am less worried about seeing dark areas adjacent to "clean" (untoned) areas on circulating examples for that reason, as long as the color is in the appropriate protected areas.

 

I think that holed dollar was cleaned, not recently though. Unless you were alive up to 170 years ago, you can't state it was never cleaned. In addition, Dave makes a good point about it being in contact with hands and skin to large extent since it's holed. Without any scientific mumbo jumbo involved, common sense tells me even minor alterations to coin surfaces affect toning. What's key is perhaps the period of alteration, since toning happens gradually. Whether it's a small piece of cardboard on a proof coin in a 2x2 holder or a coin in album, toning will be influenced

 

I have found that each time I use the word "ALWAYS" it comes back to bite me. I rarely use it anymore. Perhaps in time, you'll understand that Mother Nature will ALWAYS have a surprise for us.

 

Those are environmental factors, not surface alteration factors.

 

Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner. I needed to wait for a chance to look at the dollar in-hand before I answer your questions.

One would naturally think that a holed coin would only be used for a necklace or something of the sort. However, there are two problems with that theory when applied to this coin:

1. The seated dollar is BIG and HEAVY, not something a rational person from the mid-1800's would casually wear.

2. If this was used on a necklace, I would expect there to be wear on the inside of the hole due to friction with the necklace itself. I don't see any in this case. I have a Roman antoninianus with a hole in it that I put on a necklace and wore for a couple years. In those couple of years, the hole was greatly worn. I also have a Chinese spade that has an out-of-round hole because it was put on a necklace and used as a charm.



As joecoincollect mentioned, there is no way to tell what has happened to this coin in its 170-year existence. Perhaps the hole was drilled so that the coin could be hung on a wall, or to siphon some of the silver. This coin has circulated, and that could have been caused by being used as jewelery (but one would expect the reverse to be less worn than the obverse, right?). Maybe the coin was pulled out of circulation, holed for some reason, and was refused in commerce bedause of the reduced weight, which would explain why this coin is not below the VF level. However, the raised areas caused by the hole being drilled show wear, which means the coin was circulated in some way after being holed. These areas have the lightest toning, so I think that the coin was holed after it had circulated for some time.

Yes, there is more black on the obverse than on the reverse. I don't know what you mean by "I've always held that Seated-era coinage toned while still circulating, and am less worried about seeing dark areas adjacent to "clean" (untoned) areas on circulating examples for that reason, as long as the color is in the appropriate protected areas." The entirety of this coin is toned, just to a greater degree in some areas than others.

 

Absolutely true and I hope you can agree with several of us here who are trying to make this point: The toning on a coin (one as you say - 100% original) is mostly dependent on its environment (MOTHER NATURE)! And overtime, its environment may change.

 

I'm starting to get confused about who is trying to make what points. No matter what the environment is, the color progression would always be the same. The environment influences the pattern of the toning (eg. an old album can cause concentric toning, while being in a bag can cause lopsided toning, and a mixture of environments will cause a mixture of toning patterns.). I think we both agree on all of this, as I agree with your above point.

 

With that I'm drawing conclusion about the oft-seen Circulation Cameos in the Seated issues, which to me could only form if they continued circulating while toning/toned. They're too frequent to have been coins which toned in storage and then made it back out into circulation; the only conclusion is that the sulfur-laden post Industrial Revolution atmosphere (particularly in the East) caused circulating issues to acquire patina faster than other issues which circulated equally. Barber issues can be similarly affected, but we see less of it in pre-Seated or post-Barber issues.

Beyond that, I've stopped making points and started learning points.

 

As I said up the thread. I'm 98% on your side and thanks for the education.

 

I've been looking for an explanation for circulation cameos for some time now. Now I have a very plausible theory. Thanks!

 

Out of my ignorance: Will one of you please tell me what a circulated cameo coin is? A circulated Cameo Proof that is toned?

 

It's the reason I'm always leery of early-stage toning colors in those issues. Doesn't mean it should be a generalization, any more than you can generalize that circulated coins shouldn't tone nicely because they aren't left in albums to do so like Mint State issues would be. There's always exceptions.

 

When the devices have a lighter toning than the fields.