Grade this 1838 half

Bought this recently. What would it grade?

 

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XF-AU Details - Scratches in front of bust & environmental damage spots on OBV.

 

AU55. Gorgeous. Don't you dare touch it. Blemishes?.......Character! Bust coinage, especially halves are harder to find uncleaned (mostly, some say, due to the Economite hoard, where wooden wash boards were set us with rows of char women scrubbing away the grim and verdigris that years of burial inflicted on the coins) than hens teeth!

 

EF-45 details.

 

A U beauty!

 

Fantastic images.

Unoriginal surfaces.

The brownish-red coloration directly adjacent to very dark color is an absolute red flag to someone who knows toning; that does not happen all at once in the real world. When you see that, you immediately wonder why the coin appears to have undergone the toning process at two different times in its' life, and this coin presents immediate evidence as to why.

Note the areas McBlzr circled on the cheek (plus adjacent areas) and near stars 7-8. The metal looks literally eaten away in places, indicating to me it's has a vicious etching ameliorated. Perhaps verdigris, more likely PVC, was allowed to progress to the point where metal was actually removed from the coin. The places affected are precisely where I'd expect PVC to be able to progress, especially noticeable around the hair where it started in the low spots and worked its' way higher.

The "conservator" then removed the infection - likely with the least-possible effect on the surrounding toning because they knew they'd have to re-tone the coin to achieve some salability from the result - and retoned it.

I'd like to be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But those patches of raw metal don't lend themselves to other easy explanations - planchet irregularities at the time of strike would not colorate much differently than the rest of the coin over this much time.

 

I agree that the surfaces are not original, but You mean the same thing happened to my seated dollar? I can assure you that my coin has never been cleaned. What you are seeing is the remnants of luster around the protected areas of the devices. These areas of luster have a higher surface reflectivity which allows the thin film interference to work in deeper patinas. Where the luster ends, the reflectivity ends, so the color ends and you get a dark grey. I have my dollar in hand, so I can assure you that is what is happening here.

By your logic, this shouldn't naturally happen, but the same phenomena is at work:
Same here:

 

XF Details. Nice coin, though

 

XF or AU details, corrosion on the obv. I also think some cleaning in the fields (esp rev) later toned over. That being said I don't think it looks too bad as so many have been dipped to a flat white, the worst fate.

 

I hadn't even noticed that there was a reverse pic there. I see what you mean. Not sure I completely agree with it all though.

 

XF-Details

 

Thank you all for your opinion. Great to learn !

 

Your coins exhibit color progression. His does not; it's yellow/brown adjacent to and touching black, with no other color present anywhere. Yellow/brown is not the color before black in toning progression. The difference between these two cases is radical.

 

This is why grading is subjective. Famous, experienced, professional numismatist: Gorgeous!

Little Ol'me. Ugly, abused, hairlined and environmentally damaged, problem coin possibly w/multi-spot removals. But what do I know.

 

Really? The color progression is grey then blue or vice versa? Look at the half dime; you'll see grey immediately next to red, yellow, green, etc. Is that a part of the natural color progression? By your logic, no.

The black in the color progression is based on the assumption that the patina is over a fully lustrous surface. That is NOT the case for the half dollar. You can see that the black areas are places where there is no luster, and the places where there is luster have color. The black is caused by a very deep sulfide or oxide patina over a dull, worn area.

 

Toning color progression on silver has been exhaustively defined to a scientific standard. I would expect it to be somewhat abbreviated, less subtle, on a circulated coin but the "color" doesn't exist at all except in terms of interference, which won't change in any case.

Why doesn't your late-state Half Dime only have two colors?

 

Yes, I get all of the physics behind thin film interference where it applies to silver coins. However, for it to work, the metal surface needs to reflect the light through the patina. When the metal wears and the luster disappears, the light can't reflect through the thicker patinas. That is why circulated silver coins tone grey with little color. However, when a coin is cleaned or dipped, the patina layer is thinned substantially and the metal surface becomes more reflective, so the patina can produce colors. A perfect example is this coin:


Had the half dime, half dollar (both examples), and my dollar been fully lustrous, the entire surface would be covered in colorful toning, likely not the terminal states of the color progression. You are confusing the glossy, lustrous black of the late-state color progression with the dull grey of the toning on circulated silver coins.

Again, notice how the color abruptly disappears when the luster ends.

 

Here we go again...

@SuperDave You of all persons, with your background and numismatic experience SHOULD KNOW that in spite of all the research, studies, experiments, and chemical evidence:

ANYTHING is possible when speaking about toning and the colors we find on our coins. You can take your "progression BS" and go preach to the dummies. While progressive toning may be closer to the norm, IN THE REAL WORLD of coins it is uncommon. That's because there are too many variables. Anything that gets on the surface of a coin can affect the oxidation pattern in ways even you have not imagined with all your experience. The countless times toning is removed and develops over centuries clouds the picture even more.

Each of us decides for ourselves (often with the help of TPGS professionals) what is tolerated and "natural" color no matter if it is or not.

 

I should like to clarify something along the line of what you are saying. In many cases, the reflection of light off a nicely toned surface (especially blue) can "mimic" underlying mint luster (even PL mirrors) when true, original mint luster is practically non-existent.

 

A fully-lustrous, uncleaned coin that reacts to the H2S in the environment will ALWAYS follow the toning progression. The style and minute details of the toning are how one tells natural vs artificial. When the luster is messed with in any way, the color progression may not be applicable.