Just starting a new thread to get ur opinion on my post/question regarding embossing and authenticity of notes. Added info, when I was at heritage, they suggested repairing and pressing a couple of my notes, but I felt it was best to submit the notes raw, clear authenticity, in a diminishing supply is a source of value I would think, as an investor. "I was looking and I dont find many notes with "good embossing" advertised as comments on their grading, but I see many Paper quality comments, are the comparable? is one worth more then the other, I would think paper quality suggests originality but knowing what I now know about embossing, the note could be ppq or epq and still be pressed, and even if the note isnt pressed and was just a weak strike on the embossing, a collector couldnt truly tell the difference if it got past the grading companies right? I guess im asking, in terms of originality of the note, embossing comment is best u can get am I correct? Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t227869/#ixzz2U54Sz2rO" "edit please read my later post specifying comments made by heritage, the original statement here was misleading, because I did not know the disctinction between doctoring,note repair and legitimate restorations"
btw ill post pics of the 5 bills recently graded tomorrow after jury duty so all can view.... the 100 chicago national bank note, is insane, 64 good embossing serial G00003638A
I must say that I find your comments on Heritage a bit odd. I have dealt with the Director of the Currency Dept for several years now and have found no such suggestions to alter the banknote in any way shape or form. If you have documented proof of alteration suggestions, I am sure my contact would be interested in knowing this.
Your gut instinct about Heritage's comments is right, as Rickie said. That comment makes me think they are just in it for profits. If that means deceiving buyers to pay more by doctoring a note, then it sounds like this person is for it. But I doubt they speak for all of HA. As far as embossing, it is the raised texture of a note. When the impression cylinder comes in contact with the sheet, it literally pushes the paper onto the printing plate. This results in the effect we know as embossing. One easy way to tell the embossing without running your fingers over the note is to shine a light at a low angle over the note. It reveals embossing and also hidden flaws. Although we value embossing today, as a sign of paper originality, this was not always the case. Only a few decades ago, collectors were pressing their notes to get them perfectly flat, because embossing and paper waves were considered imperfect. Although a note may be deemed to have original paper quality with a PPQ/EPQ/OPQ grade, it does not necessarily mean there is good embossing. Embossing can range from very minor and almost imperceptible, to punch-through embossing where it literally begins to tear the paper (I've seen this around treasury seals the most). On the other hand, a note may have good embossing but not a *PQ grade for another reason, like a stain or restoration. So it's not exclusive. You'll also find notes that grade as high as 68 with no *PQ designation and as low as 6 with a *PQ designation. Frankly, I think your instinct was right to leave the notes as is. To the person from HA who told you to do this, I would have rebutted and asked them if they want you to clean and polish your coins as well.
Well to specify, the note in question was a very rare mint national bank note, and it was "hinged" meaning it had some residue left on it from when the previous collector had it in a display book, they said they could remove this glue without anybody knowing. They also suggested that a couple of my notes could also benefit from "work" they could do. Not trying to get anybody in trouble, here, just asking about value of embossing :devil:
And thanks once again for the great info funkee, gonna grab my camera n post those pics i took last nite
Depending on the extent of the damage and the value of the note, it may be worth getting the restoration done. Restorations are different than pressing a note. I don't think the Heritage agent realizes this. If there are negative comments due to the issues you described, it's unlikely to earn a PQ grade or a good embossing comment, even if there is embossing left. That's just a nuance of third party grading. Professional restorations are pricey. I would check track & price auction records to see what other notes sold for in higher grade and compare that to the cost of restorations to see if it's worth it.
gotcha, i myself hadnt realized that "restorations" like removing glue from hinged notes was considered legitimate, thanks so much for clearing this up
That says it all about their intentions. This is a deceptive practice of attempting to improve the appearance without disclosure. It's no different than doctoring notes. It seems Heritage is pushing you to improve the appearance of the note with the expected result of selling it at a higher price. However, this happens at the expense of the buyer who is expecting to receive a high grade note that is worth his investment. However, in reality it may not be. There are tons of examples of doctored notes here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/sets/72157631103745094/with/7866984970/ You're not going to fool a Third Party Grader like PCGS or PMG with a restoration. This is why these notes are sold raw and not resubmitted for grading. There are signs to look for, but it's not possible to protect yourself when buying online. Experts can restore the note to remove the glue. It will probably bring a higher premium than the note had the glue been left on it. It would bring even more money if the note never had glue to begin with. By not disclosing the restoration, you're leading buyers to believe the note is original, when it is restored. If you sent the note to PCGS or PMG, it's very likely they'll spot the restoration, assigned a Net/Apparent grade and put a restoration comment on the holder. Whether it improves the numerical grade is arguable. But if the note were an AU 50 if it were original, it might be an XF45 Net or AU50 Net, which is not worth as much. I'm familiar with some restoration techniques. For glue, I believe they will use acetone. If the glue stained the paper, then perhaps oxalic acid after that. But it's going to leave signs. The paper in that area is unlikely to come the same shade, and it may glow under a black light. No restoration can bring a note back to its original state, simply because the fibers in the note can't be undamaged. It might fool an online buyer, but not a TPG. If and when the buyer sends it in to get graded, they'll probably realize they've lost money on their investment. That is unethical.
Not necessarily. You can restore it to improve the note, but I would make it clear that the note has been restored. To determine if you should restore it or not will require you to get a quote, then compare the cost versus possible gains.
Reading this thread brings to mind the comments and advice given by John E Cash. His 5\14 dated blog speaks about this very subject. One of which we should all learn from and remember to keep in mind when making a purchase.
