gold in AGE and the Gold Buffalo

what is the difference between the gold in AGE and Gold Buffalo ..

​

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

None!

 

There are Unc. Bullion Gold Buffalo's & Proof Buffalo's

 

The gold in the Buffalos is .999, while the gold in the Eagles is .917

 

Perfect answer. Higher purity I would say will always be preferred all things equal.

They are also different coins, and have different demand based on some people collecting them by year.

 

True, but both coins have an equal amount of .999 gold. The Eagle weighs more than one troy ounce.

 

While both coins have one ounce of gold, the .917 fineness of the Eagles makes them less popular in some places outside the US, like here in Japan, where they are bought at a discount to the .999 Australian and Canadian coins.

 

One of the most popular bullion coins of all time, The Krugerrand, is minted in coin gold (.917) and has been that way since it was introduced in the 1960s. Go outside the USA and this is the most held investment coin in the world. There is a very practical reason for coin gold (.917). It makes the metal hard enough so there isn't damage from handling. Keep in mind that I am not talking proof coins as that is a completely different topic.

The 24 karat gold coin did not show up until the Canadians created the gold maple which distinguished them enough to break into this market. The other mints followed with similar products.

IMO, for the US buyer, there is not difference between the Buffalo and Eagle for pure investment holdings. IMO, I think the Eagle is better known, and in guys dealing in volumes, there is a preference for this coin due to its durability. Buy these on price, not purity. If you think you might be going to communist China to sell them, then there might be a small advantage to the buffalo, but otherwise, Nah.

 

:thumb:

I agree. Good analysis.

 

You don't think the savings the refiners get by having it .999 versus coin gold is worth something? Maybe you are right about gold since its high value, but I think this would have to be worth more as .999 in silver. You are right Krugerrands were popular for quite a while, but all of the popular ones lately have been .999 so isn't this proving an investor preference, (higher value)? I think new krugerrands are extremely low on popularity now.

Just asking.

 

I believe that's the wrong way to think about it. Coin collectors, of all people, should understand that gold and silver in coin form is one of the highest and best uses of the metal. It is a way to invest and preserve wealth. Melt value is a much lower use and really should not be used to value coins. NOBODY should ever be willing to sell a coin for melt value or less. The very fact that the metal is in coin form gives it value above melt [i.e., scrap] value. So I would say the durability of a .917 coin gives it superior value. The premium on .999 is a misperception that may fade with time.

 

I guess I just don't understand. Refiners pay higher values for all metals the more pure they are, since it saves them money. I have sold quite a bit of copper and other metals and know this for a fact. Would this not apply to gold and silver? It is why I have always heard sterling sells for a discount, since it is hard to take the added metal out of the silver.

To me this would by default make .999 a higher value product to a refiner than .91 or similar. I simply know for a fact this is true of lower metals.

Besides, for gold bullion is durability and resistance to wear REALLY an issue?

 

What exactly does a refiner do with .999 gold? Or for that matter any gold in coin form?

 

Selling AGEs to a refiner is a little like using a valuable oil painting as a drop cloth. It can be done and will work, but it really isn't the highest and best use for the material in its current form. What a refiner will pay for broken jewelry or left over plumbing scrap should be irrelevant to an AGE collector. The funny part is that it is not, and this attitude is an expensive mistake on the part of collectors [in my opinion]. And I believe durability is a quality that imparts at least a tiny bit of value to a coin. It certainly should not be a negative factor in value. Think of it the other way around. It cost money for a refner to turn scrap .999 gold into a .917 one ounce coin. This makes the coin a bit more valuable than the metal in scrap form.

I know my views are not standard, and people will continue to be conned out of their AGEs for scrap value. I just want to put out the idea that folks should be a little more thoughtful about the value they are willing to accept in return for selling bullion coins. If enough people realized it, it might make a difference.

 

Most often, they probably melt it and add base metal to turn it into 14K or 18K gold.

 

Ahh, then the purity of the gold prior to that is irrelevant if we are talking about the difference between 24K and 21K (coin gold). They may prefer the coin gold because it already has some of the base metal mixed in that is commonly put into jewelry. It's hard to imagine however, they would be willing to pay the premium of coins in any case to make jeweler's gold.

The point being, refiners have no influence over the desirablity of a buffalo vs an eagle.

Refiners don't make money be starting with a refined product.

 

Correct! But if they can talk people out of their coin gold for a lower price, they will.

 

I have experience in the jewelry business, and that is usually not the case Cloud. Most jewelry manufacturers buy their gold and other metals as pure as possible and make whatever level of purity they need onsite. I have never seen premixed 14k gold base, it was always 24k and mixed down to what level is needed. 14k or 18k is not all the same, and its mixed to a certain type of 14k based on end use, color desired, etc. Maybe small mom and pop shops buy it premixed, but the large players do not.

This was the basis of my question as well, since I have only ever seen 24k being used industrially.

Edit: As a matter of discussion, I believe there were at least 8 different types of 14k they used, all different color, strength, costs, etc. This was one of the largest chain manufacturers in North America.

 

From an artwork perspective alone, The AGE to me looks like a computerized rip-off of the ultra classic and expertly sculpted 20 dollar double eagle Saint, one of the highest achieved forms of artwork ever produced on an American coin. The reverse "family of eagles" is quite underwhelming as well compared to the large flowing wings on the original host coin. Hey, don't get mad at me , somebody had to say it. It is still American gold and there are many reasons to like it just for that as already stated on this thread.

The Buffalo on the other hand conjures none of these feelings. Knowing the reprint if the Saint in modern bullion was a runaway success, I suspect the mint needed a sequel and trolled another classic and popular design when they settled on the Buffalo design. This time though they wisely didn't mettle with the design and just made a huge Buffalo nickel out of gold! I think it is really interesting to see full details of the design on a coin so large you hardly need a loupe! Whats not to like about that? They even get better when in proof production and quickly become a collector coin, where AGEs mostly get to hang out with Krands and Maples for company in hoards.

Yes, it is time to create a new design for US bullion that can stand alone and alongside both of these coins. One that represents our Heritage and our current generation, but until then I will always prefer the Buffalo or a classic Saint for aesthetic reasons alone. JMO

 

Regardless of how many commercial steps it takes, the result is the same. But that's not the point. The point is that PM in coin form is already a much higher and more valuable use for the metal than the undifferentiated raw material. So folks should think twice before taking their notion of value from what a refiner wants to pay and start thinking more as investors.