Germany - a little help ?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by DEA, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. DEA

    DEA Well-Known Member

    I am unsure if this is how I am supposed to do this, but I couldn't see any other means of posting my question. For talerman (who has helped me before) or anyone who can provide assistance, information or guidance. Please.

    I'm having one heck of a time identifying this coin I have. It appears related to or a variant of 1760 T Augsburg - Free City - 10 kreuzer (KM 171) (per the 3rd edition of the Standard Catalog of German Coins AND the 7th edition of the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1701-1800). However, rather than KM171's "10" this coin has "X K" Augsburg-10-kreuzer-1760-obv.jpg Augsburg-10-kreuzer-1760-rev.jpg

    The obverse (with the pine cone on a fancy pedestal) says "COLON AUGUSTA VINDELICO 1760". The "X K" can be seen below the pine cone. I think that is a "T" at about 7 o'clock and two horseshoes 'about' six o'clock. KM says the two horseshoes were used 1668-1697 - which my coin does not fit.

    The reverse (with the imperial eagle) says "GE IER REX LO B M H DUX FRANCISCUS D G R I S A"

    I measure the diameter at about 24 millimeters. It weighs about 3.67 grams.

    I bought it in about November 2000 in Germany; in order of likelihood - Wiesbaden, Mannheim, Mainz or Munich.

    Any clarification and identification would be most greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance for your time, advice and expertise.
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    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I moved your post here because the Numismatic Resources section wasn't the place for it. That section of the forum is for providing info and helpful links, not for discussions.
  4. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster It seemed like a good idea at the time.

    I pulled out my 1984 copy of Schon's Deutscher Munzkatalog 18.Jahrhudert and it's listed as #58. However, Schon doesn't list KM171. The only 1760 10 Kreuzer listed is yours. His listing #63 does match the dates and description of KM176, which has 10 and not X K.

    It's also interesting that he doesn't list any prices for #58. #63 is listed at 35DM in the equiv. of F (S) and 70DM in VF (SS) in 1984 prices. Based on my experience with Krause, I would guess that they made a mistake in the description and KM171 should be like yours, but this is only speculation.

    Schon also has a 20 Kreuzer of this type listed that isn't in Krause.

    You may want to check MA-Shops to see if any of the dealers have something like this listed. Then you could figure out the preferred attribution, rarity and value. I've used MA-shop searches in the past to clarify some of the Krause inconsistencies.

    Interested to see what you find. Hope this helps
    DEA likes this.
  5. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    My "Deutsch Muenzkatalog - 1700-1806 " edition 2008 only lists the Augsburg 10 Kreuzer 1760 only with 'X K'. A variant with '10 K' is not listed.
    Exactly as Oldhoopster says.
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  6. DEA

    DEA Well-Known Member

    Thanks to both of you! I appreciate your time, opinion and knowledge. I will certainly go take a gander at MA-Shops. I emailed Krause back in April (with a photo and much of the contents of my original post) but have not heard back from them.

    Looks like I'm going to have to obtain a deutscher Münzkatalog.
  7. DEA

    DEA Well-Known Member

    Thank you and sorry!
  8. talerman

    talerman Supporter! Supporter

    I am also still a relative beginner at navigating Coin Talk. Thank you, GDJMSP, for setting this up.

    On the Augsburg coin, I agree with Oldhoopster and Eduard. The only 1760 10 Kreuzer has the value expressed as a Latin X. In addition to their books, I have an 1897 catalogue of City of Augsburg coins by Forster & Schmid. They also only list your type. They mention that the mintmaster position remained in the Holeisen (or Hohleisen) family for a long time and that they all used 2 horseshoes as their mintmark except between 1761-66 when one horseshoe was used. This would have been when Franz Hohleisen was mintmaster. They do not have the name of the mintmaster who succeeded Johann Christoph but the 2 horseshoes on your coin suggest it was another Holeisen. The T is the initial of the diecutter, Jonas Peter Thiebaud.

    Beautiful coin.
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    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You're welcome and no apology necessary ;)
  10. DEA

    DEA Well-Known Member

    Thank you, talerman! I think she's a beaut too! And thanks for the detailed info on the mint masters and my horseshoe concerns. I cannot express my gratitude clearly enough in words to Eduard, Oldhoopster and talerman for all the detailed information. The KM data (or inconsistent data) was causing unconscious and indiscriminate short circuits in my brain. I think there was a portion of my thought processes considering my coin was a fake. Y'all have taught me, amongst the obvious, that KM is not the final source for these old German coins.
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