German States (Saxony): silver thaler, "3 Brothers" type, 1596-HB, Dresden mint

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Jun 14, 2020.

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How interesting/appealing do you find this coin, whether or not you're an expert? (1=worst, 10=best)

  1. 10

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. 9

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. 8

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  4. 7

    3 vote(s)
    15.0%
  5. 6

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  6. 5

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  7. 4

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    German States (Saxony): silver thaler, "3 Brothers" type, 1596-HB, Dresden mint
    3brothers-frame.png
    Obverse: Half-length facing figures of three brothers in circle, head of middle figure divides date, small imperial orb above, titles in legend.
    Reverse: FRAT : ET. DV - CES. SAXON, 13-fold arms with central shield of electoral Saxony breaking legend at bottom.
    Issuer: Electorate of Saxony, in the names of brothers Christian II, Johan Georg I, and August, sons of Elector Christian I from the Albertine line.
    Specifications: Silver, 38 mm approx., 27.06 g. Dresden mint.
    Grade: PCGS Genuine; VF detail, "tooling", cert #39640161.
    Reference: Numista-40204, Davenport-9820, MB-314 (also Keilitz/Kahnt-186, Schnee-754, per Künker am Dom.*)
    Provenance: ex-Künker am Dom, Germany, via MA-Shops, 19 May 2020.* Purchased raw.
    Notes: the thaler was a large silver coin weighing about an ounce. The thaler was the ancestor of all later dollar and crown-sized coins. In fact, the word "dollar" was derived from "thaler". Thalers usually had elaborate designs and are avidly sought by collectors.
    Comments: I'd collect more thalers if I could, but they can be pricey, and "thalermania" is not a condition I could afford! But I'm happy to have this one. I've always liked this "Three Brothers" type, even when the boys look a tad spooky. (Especially when they look a tad spooky.) This is an attractively toned example, too.
    *Post-slab update: the "Genuine/VF details" outcome at PCGS was disappointing, and the notation about "tooling" a tad mysterious, as I do not see any trace of tooling on the obverse or reverse of the coin. I suspect there must be some subtle traces of an old mount removal on the edge. Thalers of this era were often mounted with attachments (silver loops) so they could be worn like medallions, and it is not uncommon for such mounts to have been later removed, and thus "tooled" (filed slightly) in the process.


    3brothers-frame.png

    3brothers-TrueView.jpg

    3brothers-black.png

    3brothers-gradient.png

    3brothers-white.png

    3brothers-coinscape.png

    3brothers-slab.jpg

    033811S
     
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  3. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    Nice one, i'd give it a 7 for the type!
    Ps. I think it's more like an 8 tbh, the toning makes it quite appealing and their faces have good details!I had a 1597 piece in VF but sold it!
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    lordmarcovan likes this.
  4. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice one, lordmarcovan! I used to be quite the thaler fanatic and this one is one of my favorites. As you mentioned, they can be rather pricey, so I never had very many (or very many nice ones).

    Same date as yours: do we have a die match? Those little boys look pretty grumpy.

    Saxony - 1596 3 bros thaler (0).jpg
     
  5. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    I plan to have one....someday.
     
    lordmarcovan likes this.
  6. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Wow, I was just reading about this family, came across this image of Christian iI and thought...that is one large fancy collar he has there. :) I think we need to bring back fancy collars.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  7. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    That painting struck me as well. He looks just like some people I know. I can easily imagine him wearing a sports jersey and driving a pickup truck. Old paintings of this era really fascinate me.

    I remember visiting the Mint Museum in Charlotte, NC, which exhibits a lot more than just coins. I was actually more interested in some of the art than I was in all of the rare gold C-mint coins on display, which all looked alike.
     
    Cachecoins likes this.
  8. dirty_brian

    dirty_brian Well-Known Member

    ive almost bought one of those a few times but i just dont like the reverse.
     
  9. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    For this particular collar and similar ones there's Christian von Minden, on Braunschweig Lunerburg Celle talers! Also Ferdinand II has a few nice ones, Phillip IV on his early ducatons and Albert & Elisabeth /Spanish Netherlands.
     
    DonnaML, Cachecoins and lordmarcovan like this.
  10. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Here are a couple of thalers I own from Saxe-Altenberg and Saxony.


    Saxe-Altenburg, AR Broad Thaler 1624, Four Dukes (the sons of Friedrich Wilhelm I). Obv. Johann Philipp /Rev. his three brothers, Friedrich, Johann Wilhelm, & Friedrich Wilhelm II. Davenport 7371.

    Saxe-Alternburg 1624 4 Dukes Obv. 1.jpg

    Saxe-Altenburg 1624 4 Dukes Rev. 1.jpg

    Saxony (Albertine Line), AR Broad Thaler 1626, Johann Georg I, Elector of Saxony. Davenport 7601.

    Saxony 1626 Johann Georg Obv. 1.jpg

    Saxony Johann Georg 1626 Rev. 1.jpg

    This is the same Johan Georg I depicted 30 years earlier on @lordmarcovan's thaler.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    This coin is on its way back from PCGS. Disappointingly, it failed to straight-grade. They ruled it Genuine - VF Details (98 - Damage). As of this typing, before I have it back in hand, I have no clue where the "damage" is. I don't think it's the flat area on the reverse- that looks like fairly typical strike weakness. I suspect there must be traces of an old removed mount on the edge somewhere. That's a common issue with thalers. It certainly doesn't affect the eye appeal in this particular case. I still think this is a handsome coin due to the attractive toning and the neat design. Plus, these big pieces of early silver are just so impressive in hand.

    Look how surprisingly similar the previous (seller's) images and the TrueView are.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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