Featured Galerius (with Dattari provenance) and Galeria Valeria

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, May 23, 2020 at 4:57 PM.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    A couple of months ago, I think I mentioned that I was keeping my eye out for examples of coins of both Galerius and Galeria Valeria, since I didn't think it would be right to buy one without the other! I recently came across two coins that I liked (from two different sellers) and decided to buy them. The first one arrived last week and the second today, so I thought I'd post about both of them together. I very much like the color on both of them; the first one is a brighter and shinier brown than the photo shows.

    Galerius, AE Follis, 305-306 AD, Cyzicus Mint (4th Officina). Obv. Laureate head right, IMP C GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS P F AVG/ Rev. Genius, wearing modius, nude, chlamys draped over left shoulder, standing left, holding cornucopiae in left hand and pouring libation from patera in right hand, GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI; K Δ [K = Cyzicus, Delta = 4th Officina] in exergue. RIC VI Cyzicus 21b & 25a (pp. 582, 584), Sear RCV IV 14546, Cohen 81. 27.8 mm., 9.65 g. 12 h. Ex. Dattari Collection; Ex. Jesus Vico.

    Galerius jpg version.jpg

    Galeria Valeria (wife of Galerius and daughter of Diocletian). AE Follis, 308-310 AD, Cyzicus Mint (4th Officina). Obv. Diademed and draped bust right, GAL VAL-ERIA AVG / Rev. Venus standing facing, head left, right hand holding up apple, left hand raising drapery over left shoulder, VENERI V-ICTRICI; Δ [Delta = 4th Officina] in left field; MKV [Cyzicus] in exergue. RIC VI Cyzicus 46 (p. 586), Sear RCV IV 14597. 24x26 mm., 5.7 g.

    Galeria Valeria jpg version.jpg

    Regarding the provenance of the first coin: after having read the thread about Giovanni Dattari (1853-1923) and his coins that @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix started a couple of months ago (see https://www.cointalk.com/threads/the-dattaris-mystery.357304/), I was, naturally, very intrigued by the Dattari provenance of the Galerius coin. Especially because I remembered reading in that thread that Jesus Vico sold a number of Dattari's Roman Imperial coins a few years ago. And especially because I was actually able to find Vico's listing of my coin, from 2017:

    Galerius - Jesus Vico, Dattari Collection auction description, Spanish  version, jpg (version 2).jpg

    It's pretty exciting (at least for me!) to own a coin whose provenance must go back before Dattari's death in 1923. But here's my question: given that Dattari's Roman Imperial coins were never catalogued, does any know how Jesus Vico knew that the Dattari coins he sold a few years ago were from Dattari's collection? Did he buy them from the family?
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 5:27 PM
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  3. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Very nice coins, @DonnaML ! Cannot answer your queries, as I only have one Datari, and it is of Livia.

    LOL, funny you got them both together. Nice idea.

    My Galerius:

    Roman Empire
    AE large follis.
    30mm, very heavy 12.1g
    Struck at TICINUM, 300-303 CE
    Obv: MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, laureate head right.
    Rev: SACRA MONET AVGG ET CAESS NOSTR, Moneta standing left, holding scales & cornucopia, T T . in exergue.
    RIC VI, 46b.
    Ex: INCITATUS Coins (Steve McBride)

    Galeria Valeria:

    Roman Empire
    Galeria Valeria
    AE Follis
    22.94mm 5.42g
    308-310 CE
    Obv: GAL VAL-ERIA AVG, Diademed robed bust right
    Rev: VENERI VI-CTRICI, CMH monogram, Venus standing left, holding apple , SMNΓ in exergue
    RIC VI 57 Nicomedia
    Ex: Ancient Imports (Marc Breitsprecher)
  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  5. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    Nice coins, especially the Galerius! I bought quite a few of the ex Dattari Roman coins from Vico. I trust the provenance claim, and I assume the firm sold a bunch of them for the estate. But I don't know this.

    Here are some of them:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.02.21 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.02.32 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.02.47 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.02.58 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.03.12 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.03.22 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.03.43 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.04.06 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.04.20 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 9.04.32 PM.jpg

    In this thread I proposed the name "Dattari toning" for the very characteristic colouration his ex-collection Roman coins tend to have. I like it too! Maybe a bit too much, as you can see... :bag:
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  6. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Wow. Those coins are all fantastic! I'm envious, but I'm happy to have one myself.
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  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    "Iridescent coppery sheen" is a good description for how my coin looks in hand, especially in a good light. I have no idea if your theory of stripping and retoning is correct, or if somehow this is original 1,800-year-old toning attributable to the coins having been buried in very dry conditions. But whatever the cause, I like the way it looks!
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  8. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Nice one, Donna! The colour of the coin looks golden in your picture, but I suppose, as you've described, it's more of an deeply-hued copper? I picked up a few at one of the Vico auctions as well, and that's how I would describe most of them looking.

    The original thread you linked mentioned various occasions on which Dattari himself sold portions of his collection, and goes on to tell us a little about the haphazard way the rest of his coins were dispersed after he died. I assume Vico's offerings could have come from any one of a number of sources. I shared two of my favorites in that post, so I won't repeat by posting them here again. Here are three others, though:

    Maximianus - Felix Africa Dattari 2337.jpg MAXIMIANUS
    AE Follis. 10.03g, 26.5mm. Carthage mint, AD 297. RIC VI 21b. O: IMP MAXIMIANVS P F AVG, laureate head right. R: FELIX AD-VENT AVGG N N, Africa standing left, holding standard in right hand, tusk in left, lion at feet left; B in left field, PKS in exergue.
    Ex Giovanni Dattari Collection

    Maximinus II - Virtus Alexandria Dattari 2340.jpg
    AE Follis. 6.33g, 24.7mm. Alexandria mint, AD 308. RIC VI Alexandria 77. O: GAL VAL MAXIMINVS NOB CAES, laureate head right. R: VIRTVS EX-ERCITVS, Virtus in military dress advancing right, holding transverse spear and trophy over shoulder; P in left field, delta over R in right field, ALE in exergue.
    Ex Giovanni Dattari Collection

    Diocletian - Follis Genius Ticinum Dattari 2336.jpg DIOCLETIAN
    AE Follis. 8.33g, 27.5mm. Ticinum mint, AD 294-295. RIC VI Ticinum 23a (scarce). O: IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, laureate head right. R: GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI, Genius standing left, naked but for chlamys over left shoulder, holding patera and cornucopiae; T in exergue.
    Ex Giovanni Dattari Collection
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  9. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    Donna, Great score on both coins :D! Having a Dattari provenance on the Galerius follis makes it extra special ;). Below are 2 coins from my collection.

    3807482-003 insert.jpg Galerius follis, Alexandria, AK Collection.jpg

    4094373-003 insert.jpg Galeria Valeria follis, Cyzicus, AK Collection.jpg
  10. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Lovely examples of each, @DonnaML , and how cool to have a Dattari provenance, too! Did you know that the last time a pagan deity appeared as a pagan deity* on Roman coins was Venus Victrix on these issues of Galeria Valeria?

    *Victory inscribing a Christogram is no longer a pagan context.

    Galerius as Caesar, AD 293-305.
    Roman silvered billon follis, 8.62 g, 27.2 mm, 6 h.
    Trier, AD 302-3.
    Obv: MAXIMIANVS NOBIL C, laureate and cuirassed bust, right.
    Rev: GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI, Genius standing facing, head left, wearing modius, naked but for chlamys over left shoulder, holding patera and cornucopiae; S/F//IITR.
    Refs: RIC vi, p. 196, 508b; Cohen 65; RCV 14348.
    Notes: Some numismatists postulate that the S F in the fields of these coins from Trier is an abbreviation for SAECVLI FELICITAS.

    Galeria Valeria, AD 293(?)-311.
    Roman Æ Follis, 26 mm, 6.64 gm.
    Nicomedia mint, 308-310 CE.
    Obv: GAL VAL-ERIA AVG, diademed and draped bust right.
    Rev: VENERI VI-CTRICI CMH, Venus standing facing, head left, holding apple and drapery; in exergue, SMNA.
  11. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    @zumbly . you are absolutely correct! I tried fiddling with the seller's photos to make them look more like the coin in hand, but completely failed to capture that deep, shiny, coppery look.

    Perhaps these photos I took this morning are at least a little closer to what I see with my eyes, although they still don't really capture the reddish-brown iridescence of the coin.

    Galerius Obv 4.jpg

    Galerius Obv 1.jpg

    Galerius Rev. 1.jpg
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 3:28 PM
  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    @Roman Collector, I actually didn't realize that. I assume that you're not counting the Romano-Egyptian deities that appeared on the reverses (and, for Sol and Serapis, on some of the obverses) of the many different small brass "Festival of Isis" coins almost entirely omitted from RIC*, but described in the 1937 Alfoldi article and, more fully, at https://www.tesorillo.com/isis/intro1.htm -- especially the ones with Imperial obverses, issued all the way up to the reign of Valentinian II (see https://www.tesorillo.com/isis/anv/index2e.htm)? Would your reason for not counting them be that it seems most likely that they were not actual coins (or otherwise used as currency), but were more in the nature of amulets or souvenirs, even though they were all apparently minted in Rome by official authorities?

    * The one exception is that RIC VIII (1981) includes a number of them issued from the reigns of Constantius II through Jovian.
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 2:42 PM
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  13. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    I was thinking of those too. Another possible exception might be the use of Tyche on some Byzantine issues of Antioch. Here's one under Justin & Justinian in 527 (definitely currency in this case, a pentanummium):

    Screen Shot 2020-05-24 at 12.07.39 PM.jpg
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  14. Only a Poor Old Man

    Only a Poor Old Man Well-Known Member

    That's quite a provenance you have there! I collect for only 3 months but I have heard of the guy! (Probably because of that earlier thread you mentioned :bookworm: )
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  15. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    @DonnaML .....Nice coins I really like the 2 tone patina colouring on the Galeria Valeria.....
    Galerius Maximianus as Caesar AE Follis minted 297 AD.....11,46 g. 25 mm.
    Obv: GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES. Laureate Head right
    Rev: GENIO POPVLI ROMANI/ (crescent)/ D// ANT. Genius standing left, holding cornucopiae and patera.
    RIC VI 49b Antioch
    From an old collection formed in the 1920s. Ex Münzhandlung Kallai, Vienna.
  16. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Nice pics! Those are close to what some of mine look like too.

    I buy into the theory that these were never meant to circulate as regular currency, but they're still fascinating as a series. Here's my Valens with Isis on the reverse.

    Valens - Festival of Isis 3137.jpg
    AE. 1.11g, 12.7mm. Rome mint, circa AD 364-378. Festival of Isis issue. Vagi -; Cohen VIII -; Alföldi -; Tesorillo online 6/29 (this coin illustrated). O: D N VALEN S P F AVG, laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right. R: VOTA PVBLICA, Isis standing left, holding sistrum and situla.
    Notes: Unpublished in the standard references and apparently the only example known.
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  17. Fugio1

    Fugio1 Supporter! Supporter

    @DonnaML very nice examples and great writeup and links on Dattari. I've only recently begun re-building a collection of coins of this general area so I have no coins with a Dattari pedigree and only one coin in hand for Galerius. (Although I have another one from recent sale not yet delivered that I will share once it arrives). The only thing different about my Galerius is that it is a Heraclea mint coin. Bing's Valeria is the only coin I noticed from Heraclea so far in this thread so here is a little Galerius variety.
    RIC VI 24b (Heraclea)
  18. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    Such a great coin, Z!!

    Mine (not as nice!) is surely by the same engraver:
    Screen Shot 2020-05-24 at 8.22.51 PM.jpg
  19. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, after I saw your question to @Orfew in the "Death of Constantine the Great" thread about whether he knew anything about how Jesus Vico, S.A. acquired the ex-Dattari coins sold back in 2017, I tried to find out what I could through Google. It seems that Jesus Vico auctioned the coins in at least four different groups: Auction 147 in Madrid on 9 March 2017 (approximately 320 Roman coins from the Dattari Collection), Auction 148 in Madrid on 8 June 2017 ("more than 200 roman coins from the Dattari Collection"), Online Auction 3 in Madrid on 18 September 2017 ("More than 180 Roman Coins from the Dattari Collection") (the one in which my coin was offered as Lot 245), and Auction 149 in Madrid on 18 November 2017, with a pdf catalogue available at https://www.jesusvico.es/Img/149/catalogo-149.pdf, which appears to have offered another 150+ coins from the Dattari Collection. The Dattari Collection coins for sale at the first three auctions can all be seen at https://www.biddr.com/auctions/jesusvico/browse?a=103&s=dattari&aso_price_currency=EUR&o=na&p=1; https://www.biddr.com/auctions/jesusvico/browse?a=146&s=dattari&aso_price_currency=EUR&o=na; and https://www.biddr.com/auctions/jesusvico/browse?a=162&s=dattari&aso_price_currency=EUR&o=na, respectively. Most, if not all, appear to be Roman Imperial coins.

    So that's more than 850 Dattari Collection Roman coins that Jesus Vico offered, minus the overlap, if any. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything, either in the catalogs or elsewhere, explaining how, from whom, or when Vico obtained them.

    I did find an interesting thread about the Vico sale of Dattari Collection coins in a Polish coin forum, at http://forum.tpzn.pl/index.php/topic,11403.0.html?PHPSESSID=4192bafc535d930f105d97983cd60728. As translated by Google Translate, the thread was entitled "Sad fate of the Giovanni Dattari collection," and here are some translated excerpts. The first post at least hints that Jesus Vico obtained the coins from the family or its representatives, describing the dealer as having been "entrusted" with part of the collection for sale.

    "Sad fate of the Giovanni Dattari collection
    « On: 18 June 2017, 21:18:53»

    Today's very interesting discussion between Tomek and Mr. Lech encouraged me to start this thread as part of the classic thread "coins for NOT IN RIC".

    Both gentlemen had slightly different visions about whether the following coin went down expensive or cheap:


    However, on one point, both gentlemen agreed: the great Dattari collection (which, among others, the above-mentioned coin belonged to) is sold by the auction house Jesus Vico SA in a tragic way. I would like to join these laments and words of outrage.

    For the sake of order below, I indicate a link to a short biography of this famous collector:


    As you know, the Alexandrian part of Dattari's collection has been cataloged (although the word catalog may be a bit exaggerated, it's rather a collection of tables). The Roman (imperial) part of his collection has unfortunately never been described or cataloged. It could and should have been expected that the auction house, which will be entrusted with this part of the collection for sale, will prepare a professional catalog, with a beautiful cover, extensive introduction, great photos of all (individual) coins and reliable descriptions of all coins, and that of course the entire auction (or even the next few auctions) will be devoted exclusively to the Dattari collection. Unfortunately, the Jesus Vico auction house did not meet any of the above-mentioned - seemingly - elementary expectations.

    What's more, this "auction house" at auction No. 147 in March sold out the whole large group flights of coins belonging to the Dattari collection (sometimes counting several dozen or even several hundred pieces), without mentioning that these coins are from the Dattari collection 'ego, let alone photos of individual coins, and even more so their descriptions. This is not just barbarism but sheer stupidity. After all, they would simply earn more if they did not sell coins from this collection on group flights, but individually, or if they at least let them know in the description that they were Dattari coins and some decent photos of these coins attached (even group, but both obverse and and reverse)!

    Well, it's very sad and stupid. On the other hand, since they gave bodies all along the line, it was not appropriate not to take advantage of this opportunity. In this way I purchased a significant part of the Aurelians and Probus buses of this collection. These coins are properly described in my gallery on FAC. Therefore, I added my little brick to cataloging this wonderful collection. I hope that other collectors will do the same.



    A: Sad fate of the Giovanni Dattari collection
    « Answer # 1: 18 June 2017, 21:44:59»

    Holy words, the Jesus Vico auction house collapsed the Dattari collection very badly. They have been very nonchalant about selling this rich and meticulous collection for years. Sell quickly and have peace. This can be clearly seen in short, laconic descriptions. This collection she really deserved to carefully develop and emphasize her wonderful provenance. Mass flights without a reliable description and relevant photos. No metric data, even these most valuable specimens, this all indicates total sloppiness.

    On the other hand, as noted by Barnabas, poor emphasis on the origin of coins and lack of proper presentation, probably contributed to lower prices. A little more work, a decent catalog and you can it was to pull prices up. Well, for us, for geeks hunting this type of plaque, it's probably and better, that the ad did not work and you could at least some of the coins try to reach with your finger.

    It is a pity only for this wonderful collection and Dattari's work that everything has been irretrievably dispelled without cataloging. Sad...

    Lech Stępniewski [of the http://www.notinric.lechstepniewski.info/index.html website]
    A: Sad fate of the Giovanni Dattari collection
    « Answer # 2 on June 18, 2017, 23:51:22»

    Quote: Barnabas on 18 June 2017, 21:18:53
    Therefore, I added my little brick to cataloging this wonderful collection. I hope that other collectors will do the same.

    I also added a small brick and a handful of these non-narratives from volumes VI and VII (if I spotted all of them), saying that it was "Ex Dattari". I also archived some other photos because, as you can see, there are also rare coins listed than 3/4 unlisted ones.

    But what has spilled will not gather again. The Dattari collection is no longer there.

    I understand that publishing a decent paper catalog would have to be a monumental, long-lasting and expensive undertaking. But at least the minimum variant could be expected: that is, a proper photographing, measuring, weighing of EVERY coin in this collection and uploading this material to the internet.

    Fortunately, at least the photos are generally good. But as you noticed, only part of the coins received the grace of a separate counterfact.

    PS. The grammatical Gestapo instructed me, under pain of severe punishment, to write Giovanni Dattari, without apostrophes."

    . . . .

    Too bad it was all handled in such an apparently sloppy way. At least there's a record of the Dattari coins offered, at the links I provided above.
  20. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    Very nice detective work! And yes, that does seem a bit sloppy.
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  21. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Supporter! Supporter

    Question to @DonnaML : were you Sherlock Holmes in a previous life??
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