FYI: Questionable Counterfeit CWT's

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by saltysam-1, Jan 31, 2016.

  1. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    I am seeing a lot more alleged Civil War Tokens claiming to be authentic without the identifiers. No date. (It could happen but serious collectors WON'T buy them without one.) Store Cards with just the identity of Hardware or Grocer. No store name, no address and no town. Some in uncirculated condition or with perfect strikes on both sides. They even post a Fuld or Rulau reference number, but that's meaningless if it's a fake. It's like saying Franklin is on the face of a $100 bill. Who else would a counterfeiter put on it but a legitimate portrait. Many of the tokens in question have all of these identifiers missing on their photographs. There are enough verifiable tokens out there, so don't jump on what appears to be a great piece without the evidence to support it. I have pm several sellers about their listings. They are either uneducated about what they are selling or are as dumb as a fox.
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  3. PennyGuy

    PennyGuy US and CDN Copper

    Good advice above from Saltysam. Our favorite worldwide auction site has listed quite a few in recent months. Most of the fraudulent CWT's were listed by sellers in Eastern European countries, so far, so pay close attention to where sellers are from and who they are. Any legimate CWT seller should be willing to answer your questions. Check any provided attribution yourself against good sources. The best sources are the Patriot and Store Card books from the Civil War Token Society. See the site for discounted pricing on the and other books.

    Equip yourself with knowledge and know what you are buying.
    saltysam-1, swamp yankee and green18 like this.
  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Anyone care to post a photo or three. While I agree that there are c/f tokens on the market and a seller outside the US is one point in the negative column, IMO plenty of CWT don't have a date.

    Really? Do you know of any "serious" CWT collectors who will not buy one w/o a date? Very interesting - and I'm sure a very informed comment.:angelic:
    Paul M. likes this.
  5. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    The sellers probably picked them up at Stuckey's in the South...
    Insider likes this.
  6. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    As I stated, date free CWT can happen. Why chance it? I'll give you some advise direct from George and Melvin Fuld's Patriotic Civil War Token Book; page 272. I think the implied statement can stand on it's own. Without that date, attribution can never be 100% certain. There can always be doubt. Not that it makes any difference, but I am a Member of the National Civil War Token Society and this seems to be the members consensus as well. Not 100% however. 001.jpg
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
    swamp yankee likes this.
  7. PennyGuy

    PennyGuy US and CDN Copper

    A look through the Fuld books will show many listings that are undated. That does not mean that they are not contemporary to the Civil War period, only that some were made undated. Having and using the references I noted you be sure to know the difference between an undated toke and a counterfeit.

    For example look up these tokens:
    MI525 C-1a, MI740 A-1a, and MI740 A-1b
    Insider likes this.
  8. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    I hope you didn't think I said all undated tokens were not from the Civil War time frame. In fact yes, some are. You will also note that some are listed as "honorary". Those are not considered true Civil War Tokens either. Many members will shy away from those as well. But if I want a serious second opinion, I contact our verification officer Dave Snider or our society book Manager Rick Snow. That's one of the benefits of membership. Even our past officer, David Q Bowers offers help, or at least his opinion; to all the society members on any subject. (This past year he offered to pay the dues of one half year for all new members who signed up at our meeting). We are not big by membership count but there is a lot of knowledge sitting in the room. Stop by the Annual ANA Money Show. I go most every year. It's where and when we hold our general membership meeting and it's open to all those interested in tokens from this era. We would be glad to have you or anyone else interested in this facet of the hobby.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  9. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...


    Yes, that's what I read in your first post.

    Next, I think you may be confusing apples and oranges (counterfeit CWT with unattributed as to date yet considered contemporary GENUINE CWT.) That's all.:angelic:

    Anyway, thanks for the clarification and your warning.
  10. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    Not really. I see a counterfeit and someone trying to pass off a Hard Times Token or Pre-Civil War as all being somewhat in the same camp. One is more severe and less honest but the result is buying something which is not. Without the proper date stamped on the token they can claim anything. It is just a question if you want to take the chance or not. One seller told me that I should just trust him because he said so. I think what I'm trying to point out is: Unless you are sure of what you are buying don't take descriptions or comments as gospel. I am finding many seller claims as being unsubstantiated or just out right wrong.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Whatever. :facepalm:

    How true...Now that's really good advice:)
  12. PennyGuy

    PennyGuy US and CDN Copper

    This is excellent advice. I also recommend membership in the CWTS, you gain access to the most knowledgable folks about CWT's. Also some good discounts on reference books that more than offset the cost of dues.
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