From where do the dealers and auction sites get their coins?

Both scenarios are a verbal contract involving offer/acceptance. As long as both parties are of sound mind, then such transactions are 'kosh'.

Why would/should I have any different feelings about agreeing to/the outcome of the separate examples?

A better illustration of the 1st, would be if I hired you to mow my lawn for $50, and you in turn hired another guy to mow it; using your lawnmower & gas for $30(netting you $20).

As long as my lawn is mowed to my expectations, and I'm pleased with the results, I would have zero qualms with that situation. Yes, I could also mow my own lawn myself, but then I would have to purchase my own lawnmower/gas and utilize my time(which I've valued at more than the time required to mow my lawn). Those are the (hypothetical)factors involved as to why I'm willing to pay for hiring someone else to do the job.

The same applies to coin dealers. A person can choose to sell their coin to a dealer for the convenience of the dealer doing the legwork for them, or one can opt to do the work themselves. It isn't as if there is any strong-arming involved.

As for the up-marking of materials by general contractors, mechanics and the like.. That is the way that those businesses are run. Want to watch a few YouTube vids on how to install a door, or an alternator, buy the necessary tools, acquire the materials/parts oneself, and DIY?

Personal choices abound.

I too am generally of the sort to DIY, so I do share some of your views here.

And of course, no ill intention intended with our discussion here; merely a meaningful exchange of opinions and perspectives.

As a footnote:

I'm not one to vilify coin dealers for merely providing a service to collectors as a medium of exchange from the wholesaler acting as a retailer. While some practices could be considered shady and unethical; the dealer is acting as an independent entity. They have no fiduciary responsibility to their clients, unless they are contracted to do so, or their membership to certain organizations requires them to do so.

What goes around comes around. Reputation is fundamental to the survival of a business. Screw enough folks over and word gets around. Pretty soon people will shop for their coins looking elsewhere.

 

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Of course no ill will, just a discussion . I actually enjoy debating....well....just about anything really. I probably tend to express rather extreme viewpoints on things with the intention of starting them up. My assumption is that other people also enjoy discussing and really digging into what they think/believe and why. But, I often find that most people do not enjoy this kind of thing as much as I do, and I'm just perceived as being argumentative

In any case, I think you zoomed-in on an important point in that last post. As long as both parties are fully informed and come to an agreement, then there is no fault regardless of the outcome. My perspective is probably grounded in the assumption that, when it comes to coins, one party is informed while the other is not, and this differential tends to get leveraged. But, this of course is an unfair assumption to be making at the individual level.

 

It would be a perfect world if everyone thought like I do...But, how boring would that be?

 

From angry ex-wives.

 

Hah! Reminds me about a time back when I was collecting antique frog-shaped fishing lures. I was just getting started with my collection and a somewhat common lure with box popped up in an Ebay auction. There was no description for the auction beyond the pictures, and I ended up winning it for around $170, which was a pretty typical price for a mid-condition example of that combo at the time.

Once I received the frog, I took pictures and added them to a catalogue of previous sales that I had been maintaining. Upon doing this, I realized that my box was different from all of the other pictures, namely, the price was printed on the box in a different place. Come to find out, the box was also much larger, which I didn't realize because I'd never actually seen one in person.

I was active in a chat forum at the time that was similar to Cointalk, but for fishing lures, and I posted a thread about my box. I immediately was inundated with offers and so forth, and the guy that literally wrote the book on frog fishing lures had me give him a call. He said that the boxes were for prototypes that the company sent out to bait shops to garner interest before going into mass production, and up to that point, he only knew of two in existence. He had one in his collection, and he knew the name of the guy that had purchased the other at an auction back in the early 2000s.

I found the auction listing, and it was my frog! (There were hand-written fishing instructions on the bottom of the box that matched perfectly). The book author ended up getting hold of the previous owner through various connections. The story that came back to me was that the guy had made some bad life decisions, his wife left him, took a bunch of his stuff, and threw it all on Ebay without having any idea what it was.

I just happened to get lucky enough to accidentally buy this nearly one of a kind item. It may actually be a one of a kind, as my frog has brown spirals whereas every other has green spirals. People suspect that there may be 2 prototype boxes, but mine might actually be the only prototype frog. Anyway, 6 years later, and I still get a couple of emails a year from people trying to buy it. But, I'd have to be offered more than any reasonable person would possibly want to pay. The story alone is worth too much to me

Here are some pictures of my combo, you can Google "Live Action Frog" if you want to see the common version.

 

That's a pretty cool frog! I never realized people collected them, but I used to collect antique firecracker packs (sold them to fund my coins), so I can relate.

Years ago my father's aunt passed away and the family asked if he wanted anything from her. His fondest memory of going to her house was she would take a cookie from a jar and give it to him, and she made the most delicious cookies.

So, he asked if he could have the cookie jar. They wrapped it up and sent it to him, and then he placed it in his display cabinet.

A month later one of my mother's friends is over and her eyes pop. It turns out she collected antique cookie jars and that one was super rare. Of course my father has no desire to sell it, because the value for him is in the good memories.

 

Thanks for asking. There probably is, but now that I am compelled to stay at home there is no way I could get down there.

 

It used to bother me, but that is much rarer than misspelled words. They don't bother me these days either.

 

If you consign ancient coins to a CNG electronic auction, the minimum seller's fee is $40. If the coin hammers at $100, the buyer will pay $100+18% = $118 plus shipping, and you get $60. That's 51%. If anyone knows, from experience, how to get 70% of what the seller pays in a major auction, let us know.

You may have heard that some sellers negotiate to get a cut of the buyer's fee or a reduced seller's fee. Offer to sell with an auction firm numerous coins worth $50,000 each and that is likely. The effort in selling very expensive coins is similar to that of selling regular coins, so the dealer does not need as big a percentage. Offer one hundred $500 coins and it is not likely you will get a break on fees. Those are just "regular coins" to a high-quality firm like CNG.

When discussing the value of coins and venues, I didn't notice anyone mention the value of the time of the buyer. If you want a great Byzantine coin, you can look at the next CNG auction and expect to see some, but not many. You can look them over in a few minutes. Now, if you try that with eBay you can search on "Byzantine" coins and get page after page of junk and very rarely see a high-quality coin. I know collectors whose time is worth hundreds of dollars an hour. Is it worth their time to search eBay for bargains? No. Bid on a great coin on eBay (if you can find one actually being auctioned, as opposed to being offered at a high fixed-price) and you won't be competing with many collectors who would bid it up if were offered by CNG. No wonder CNG prices are higher.

Several posters above have noted that selling coins one-at-a-time with eBay is a hassle. Selling coins one-at-a-time is a hassle, regardless of how you do it. Several posters above have noted that dealers provide a service that has value. I think many collectors (usually those who have not attempted to sell many coins themselves) undervalue their service.

Let's run some hypothetical numbers. Suppose profits are to be 10% and a dealer wants to make $50,000 a year. That's $500,000 a year turnover. A year of 50 weeks of 5 days a week makes 250 days. That makes a turnover of $2,000 a day. You can't do that selling $20 coins (100 photos and up to 100 e-mails with orders, payments, and mailings a day, and some of them are bound to go wrong!). And, there are very many expenses and hassles I won't enumerate. I haven't even mentioned the time it takes to find $500,000 worth of coins that seemed to you to be enough underpriced that you could sell them for much more than you paid for them (and that no other dealer snatched up first).

There are innumerable collectors who thought selling would be a good way to make money whose businesses soon folded when reality set in.

Dealers earn their fees.

 

There is a saying, "If you want to be a coin dealer and retire with $1 million, start with $2 million."

 

They're Providing a service. (less) cash in hand now, or the bother of selling individually to other collectors. Many people want the cash. I remember taking a folder of world coins (mostly 10p boxes over the years, a few more valuable) to a coin show and turned down the offer of £5 for them. Any more & he wouldn't have made much, I can see that, but was emotionally attached to them so still have them; would rather give them to someone who likes coins. Dealers have to make money to justify time spent.