From where do the dealers and auction sites get their coins?

LOL! I like that analogy. To coin a phrase, "used coin salesmen". I think it is very applicable, for many of the dealers on Ebay. It seems like 75% of the ancient coins on Ebay are fake, in my opinion. However, I know of some good Ebay ancient coin dealers.
However, for Vcoins, 90% of the Vcoins dealers, in my opinion, seem to be honest, knowledgeable about the types of coins they sell, and care enough to carefully check the coins they sell for authenticity.
But not all of the Vcoins dealers are that way, in my opinion. Perhaps 10%. Perhaps more.
Are Vcoins dealers polite, if you ask to return a coin, that has been proven to be fake? I don't know. I've never tried to return a coin.
Are Vcoins dealers polite, if you try to return a coin, within the given time limit, for returning a coin for any reason? I don't know. I've never done that either.

 

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A close friend of ours father passed away and left him his life long coin and currency collection. Long story short, contacted a large reputable auction firm from Texas. Estimate value $585.000. Purchase offer $368,500, accepted. When all is said and done, after federal and state taxes and fees, he banked $226,000 plus change. His father's legacy, not for me to worry, what I don't know will not harm me, the end! One third to your heirs, two thirds to greed. Glad I won't know either...

 

Very true, I remember the legendary Michel Dürr sale in Geneva of barbarian coins in November 1999. Many of the coins turned up months later at very other auction houses in the US and other places. I bought some coins from the Michel Dürr sale at Harlan Berk.

 

You're not the only one my friend. I'm in a very similar predicament and having almost the exact same issue(s) and need(s) as yourself. Have given up finding anyone/dealer large/able enough to buy my entire lifetime, high-grade collection and have not the skills, know-how or time for other options. Maybe consider something similar to this: I have chosen to have a local, established and trusted auction service auction off my U.S. and foreign collections in October...likely over two days as it's large...mostly piece by piece. He's not a coin expert but he knows enough, plus I'm coaching him . There will be a few multiple-lots (for one money) of some AU coins, but most are MS silver, and/or graded and stand on their own, value-wise. He's only charging me 12-percent plus the nominal rental of our city's conservation club. Will be advertising ahead online plus in the Louisville, Cincy, Nashville, Indy and St Louis areas...all no more than a 3-hr. drive. When I added up all the fees and charges from a coin-auction house plus required grading fees (by many auction houses) for my raw/non-graded coins (the majority)...or all the fees and shipping costs if by/from eBay and someone to do it for me, I'm almost if not better off this way and with much less hassle for me, all things considered. Again, worth considering. Good luck.

 

My favorite coin source is small dealers who set up at shows. My family has instructions as to which ones to contact when I pass. Finding the ones that are good fits is important. I collect ancients. I have no interest in a dealer who specializes in coins I have spent in my lifetime whether or not they are Mint State. Many of my coins have come from these same show dealers who bought 'grandpa' collections from family. If the politicians succeed in stopping import of coins, big sellers might be more interested in junky little collections like mine. The important thing is finding a good fit for buying and selling. We have people here who only buy slabs and people who would not touch one for longer than it took to crack it out. They utilize different paths both buying and selling. I have a friend whose average coin is over $1000 and another whose entire collection would not be that much. The first will have an easier time selling on consignment.

For people here on Coin Talk, one decent source are the dealer members of our group. One (John Anthony) runs regular auctions of coins in his area of interest (ancients that do not cost thousands). Others have lists; a few have VCoins shops or stand alone websites with offerings in the $10 to $10,000 range. Find your best fit.

 

It's probably also worth noting that my criticisms of coin dealers derive partly from a naïve, utopian vision of a world were collectors can obtain, buy, sell, and trade ancient coins without influence from business interests. But the reality of the matter is that, without the tools, networks, and conveniences provided by business interests, my collecting ancient coins on a budget would literally be impossible.

There is a difference between buying a coin from one person for the sole intent of selling it to another for profit, and providing a platform that allows people to sell their coins to a wide audience for the cost of a commission, but in the end, the profit motive is the same (they are all "coin dealers"). But, where would we be without these mechanisms and people putting time into maintaining and filling them?

I mean, I live in downtown Atlanta, GA an entire ocean away from where these coins could even possibly be found. How could I possibly have a Roman coin collection without people doing work to make them show up in my mailbox?

 

A suggestion of one possible way: Go to the coin show in Atlanta this weekend (Google it) and ask any dealers with any ancients if they know of a coin club that has members that collect ancients. It is quite possible that there is not BUT findi8ng such a group can be quite useful if there is one. One great regret of my life is that I lived in the Washing DC area for over 15 years before I discovered there was a specialty Ancient Numismatic Society of Washington. Now I live in a city that thinks history started wit the Civil War. Some you win.....

 

How is this problematic?

At least speaking for the 'eBay process'. A considerable amount of time might be spent:

Cataloging -- So that the coin is properly attributed/devices correctly described. Photographing -- Processing pictures, editing/cropping.
Listing -- Compiling and uploading descriptions/pictures/auction formatting.
Processing Sales -- Preparing invoices/packing slips.
Shipping -- Printing labels, packaging, mailing the coin off.
Customer Service -- Answering any questions related to listings before and after the auction, processing potential returns.

In all, it may take as much as an 1 hr(or more) in total to do all of this for one coin.

Then one can also add in eBay's share -- The seller's fee based on the total of the sale price + shipping + tax, as well as the payment processing fee...

Do you think that above effort(service) ought to be free?

 

The ANA Code of Ethics, which is binding on both dealer members and regular members, requires members to "To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate."

 

I get what you are saying, and I agree to some extent. But, in the example that I gave, the dealer isn't charging for "Ebay listing, packaging, etc" fees, they are purchasing the coins/collection and then selling them. This may be a "difference without a distinction" in some people's opinion, but to me, it is important.

The type of argument that you are making places value on the effort of selling, and with coins, it would be pretty easy to approximate the value of that effort on a per coin basis. So, for the sake of argument, lets say that it takes 1 hour worth of effort per coin to sell on Ebay (generous approximation by the way), and the seller values their time at $50/hr. That being the case, it would be fair to charge customers $50 per coin as a service fee to sell their item for them. (I don't know how people wouldn't rather do this themselves, but I guess I'm more tech savy than most)

On the other hand, if your argument is valid, then buying people's coins with the intention of making $50/coin after fees and expenses would also be reasonable. However, in the case where they pay $1000 for a coin and make $100 profit, that would not be reasonable. And then there are the really problematic cases where people are swindled into accepting next to nothing, and the dealer makes a bundle.

All of these factors have to be taken into account, and the evaluation ends up being a matter of degree. But, the question then becomes, where does the average "Coin dealer" fall in this spectrum? More toward the reasonable end? Or more toward the Swindler end? It's a case by case basis, but on average, in my experience, they tend to fall toward the end of the spectrum that makes me uncomfortable.

 

+1.

Personally, I find huge value in the following services from dealers:
- Weeding out fake coins I would have fallen for
- Attribution
- Customs paperwork
- Providing web sites where I can research past auctions

I'm not sure where the hatred for dealers is coming from here. The overwhelming number of people employed in the sale of ancient coins do not make a lot of money. They're mostly people like us - they enjoy ancient coins.

 

And, as a person that get's hung-up about ending sentences with prepositions when writing, I'd like to acknowledge JayAG47 for the extra effort in formulating the title of this thread!

Writing grammatically correct sentences in this respect often leaves people thinking that you are trying to be an Old English Shakespearian or something. Hah!!

 

FWIW, It's not grammatically incorrect to end a sentence with a proposition. It's just that in formal writing it's frowned upon.

 

Just say, “Whence do the dealers and auction sites get their coins?” Whence is still a useful word.

 

I'm not discounting the rest of your post, but it is certainly not a generous approximation at all.

All of what I mentioned above may take considerable time for one coin. Most all of the process is manually done -- Photos, compiling, printing, packaging, mailing.

Can the entire process be done in less time? Perhaps, but to have good visibility; proper photos and descriptions are requisite, as is exemplary customer service.

I can almost guarantee that an established regular seller on eBay would have gotten more for your slabbed coins(that you mentioned selling for a lower-than-perhaps-expected price in another thread). Why? Because they have established a reputation on eBay providing exemplary customer service, and they have maintained a clientele willing to pay for it.

How is making a 10% profit($100 for a $1000 coin) unreasonable? The dealer is taking on all of the work/liability. A healthy business has to profit to survive.

What to do you do for a living?(You don't have to answer this). Do you do it gratis?

One can rightfully question the failure in ethics of one that would look to profit from taking advantage of the gullible. However, due diligence is still a responsibility on the part of those that would be 'shopping for a broker'. Yes, it may take a little effort to do some research so that one is not caught suckered into buying the Brooklyn Bridge so-to-speak.

As for honest brokers and unethical brokers.. One chooses to see what they choose to focus on. If one chooses to focus on swindler dealers than that is what they'll see in an industry. If one chooses to focus on honest dealers, then that's what they'll see.

Do you do the work on your own house or vehicle; are you self-insured; do you provide for your own legal facilities?

What do you think a reasonable profit ought to be for such services?

Do you hire a general contractor when it comes time that you've decided that you would like to remodel your home? Do you balk at the fact that the contractor charges an additional premium for materials even though they likely have a relationship with suppliers that also provides them a discount?

What about your mechanic doing the same?

 

Geezer - Is there ever a large coin show in New Orleans or Houston? If so find our what dealers are going and what they specialize in and call them to try to get them to come by your place to view and hopefully make an offer on your collection. You'll have to bait the offer though, be ready to tell them what you have, better items, maybe make a list of the good stuff that you could send them before they go to the show. When I used to collect stamps, I did this in DC even picking up the dealer at the airport and taking him to my apartment, it helped that I did previous deals with him. He made an offer which I considered while he was at the show. Ultimately, I didn't sell him the accumulation but it was a good eye opener on what my stuff would bring. I later sold it at auction in Chicago at Freemans.

 

How do you feel about incorrect apostrophes? ;-)

 

I do not think that making $100 on a $1000 coin is unreasonable. However, based on the "Service provided is the effort in selling" argument, where $50 worth of effort was expended, then it would be. If the service charges are based on a percentage, then that is a different business model and therefore, different argument.

I see what you are getting at here, and I agree with the general sentiment that "We all have to make money, right?". But, depending on how you evaluate things, all methods of making money are not the same. Consider these 2 examples:

- You want your lawn mown, I agree to mow it for $50. I mow it, you pay.

- You are standing on one side of me, I offer to buy your belt for $5 and you agree. I then immediately sell it to the guy on the other side of me, who is in desperate need of a belt, for $55.

Would you feel the same after both of these transactions? I made $50 off of you either way, so what's the difference?

I actually worked my way through college doing this kind of work and have the skills, so no, but that is beside the point that you were actually making.

In addressing the actual point, I have a strong tendency to not pay other people to do things that I can possibly do myself. I've never developed any real mechanic skills, but when my vehicles needed head gaskets, a rebuilt carburetor (I'm dating myself with that one ), master cylinder, and even once a rebuilt transmission, I gathered the learning resources and tools needed to get the job done and did it.

That's not to say that mechanics do not provide valid services, but maybe my instinctive "do it yourself" attitude, in part, explains my perspective on these things. I know people that are quite the opposite, they pay people to mow their grass, clean their house, walk their dogs, moving services, etc, etc and seem perfectly happy with it. That's just not me.

But yes, if it is not something that I feel capable of doing myself, then I pay others (if I were in need of legal representation for instance).

I actually would balk at this. I'm paying them for the work, not to serve as a profit shaving middle man for the materials.


All of that said, I'm not saying that my perspective on the business is correct, and my intention wasn't to belittle anybody. The topic of conversation came up and I expressed my opinions on the matter. That's all.

 

You got me there! But I'm gonna hide behind the explanation that autocorrect did that to me! (I write my posts in Word)

I'm also questioning whether the dash in "hung-up" was correct. Note to self: If you ever make another post mentioning grammar, proofread it multiple times!!

 

There is an auctioneer in Liberty, Missouri, that holds large auctions of coins every few months. In fact, he has one coming up in a couple of weeks. But on his website he posts pictures of every coin, which usually ends up being around 200 coins sometimes. And there are no reserves on them. He starts at a price and goes up or down depending. I know he tacks on a small percentage, but I think his volume helps.

Yep, I'm going to it!