France (Metz, Free Imperial City): silver gros, civic issue, ca. 1406-1588

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Jun 13, 2020.

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How interesting/appealing do you find this coin, whether or not you're an expert? (1=worst, 10=best)

  1. 10

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. 9

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. 8

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  4. 7

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  5. 6

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. 5

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  7. 4

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    France (Metz, Free Imperial City): silver gros, civic issue, ca. 1406-1588
    [​IMG]
    Obverse: Cross with stars in angles.
    Reverse: Saint Stephen, kneeling in prayer between two coats of arms, manus dei (hand of God) above.
    Issuer: Free Imperial City of Metz, Holy Roman Empire (now part of France).
    Specifications: silver gros, .937 fine silver, 24 mm approx., 2.47 g.
    Grade: PCGS Genuine - VF Details (95 - Scratch), cert. #39640150.
    Reference: Numista-59768, Wendling II/F/h/4, Schulten 2187.*
    Provenance: ex-Künker am Dom, Germany, via MA-Shops, 11 May 2020.*
    Notes: Metz was independent from 1189 until it came under the rule of Henry II of France under the terms of the Treaty of Chambord in 1552. Much of the building of the Cathedral of St. Stephen of Metz took place in the time when this coin circulated, and a printing press was operating in the city by 1482.*
    Comments: I was drawn to this type, having owned one previously.* The kneeling Saint Stephen... the spidery hand of God with the long fingers so prevalent in medieval art... they're wonderful. And I found the grey toning on this example quite appealing as well.
    Additional images

    014004S
     
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  3. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    I find it very appealing :)

    There are "0"'s around the margin on the obverse side, and an "8" at about the 10:00 position. Do you know the significance of them?
     
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    The little "O" rings are annulets. They're often seen in the legends of medieval coins. I'm not sure what that "8"-looking device is. Oh- wait- seems that's just a double annulet? Why annulets were used, I do not know, but would welcome the knowledge if anyone else does.

    I have a question, too, as it happens. Does anybody know what this is?

    upload_2020-6-13_11-2-7.png

    Saint Stephen's paintbrush? A broom? A small rake? ;)

    Maybe Saint Stephen was a golfer, and used that to rake the sand traps after retrieving his ball?

    Or he had a robotic claw attached to his left hand?




     
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  5. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    The WIkipedia article you quote says Saint Stephen is "...often holding a miniature church building or a censer". I'm not quite sure I see either one of those in that rake-like object, but maybe?
     
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  6. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    It could be a censer, attached to some kind of ribbon, I suppose.

    On the other example I used to own, the "handle" of the "rake" is not as straight, so maybe it's a ribbon or sash attached to the censer, rippling as it moves? It still looks awfully straight and rigid. But then the chains attached to a censer are usually straight when the clergy are swingin' them around, I guess.

    Dunno.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Something to self flagellate?
     
  8. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice one, lordmarcovan. I have a similar one, but countermarked. Countermarks tend to do horrible things to the host coin, so it is nice to see your intact example.

    CM Metz - CM eagle Sep 2019 lotz (0).jpg

    Metz AR Bugne
    Robert de Leoncourt
    1551-1555 (cm 1621)

    S. TEPH - .PROTH. M., St. Stephen kneeling / [M]ON[E]TA - MET-[ENS] P (?), Long cross with stars in angles.
    Rob.8930. Fl.p765.30.
    Countermark: Eagle in 5 mm circle reverse.
    (0.85 grams / 17 mm)

    Countermark Notes: "By decree of January 14, 1621, Henry, Duke of Lorraine decided to countermark with a crowned alerion, in his Mint of Nancy, the double money of Charles III, duke of Lorraine. There are also rare Metz (bugnes)."
    Google trans. of Alde Public Auction Oct. 2015
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Neat. I did not know the word "alerion" until just now.
     
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  10. spoon

    spoon Junior Member

    I love that design! It's one of the iconic types of the late middle ages.

    Always reminds me of this one too, from Milan. This example is actually a copy, but the toning is just too nice to entirely snub!

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. mrbadexample

    mrbadexample Well-Known Member

    It's a bit old for my usual collecting sphere, but I like it because I like Metz. It'd be a 10/10 if it had a Graoully on it. :)
     
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  12. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Unfortunately this one came back PCGS Genuine - VF Details (95 - Scratch), for some hairlines on St. Stephen's robes that I overlooked. You can see them clearly in the TrueView below, whereas they barely show at all in the other sets of images above, which came from the seller. They're likely the sort of marks that show at certain angles to the light but are barely visible from other angles. Oh well. It's still a cool coin.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    A few scratches never bothered me much - I still like that coin. Great toning, too.
     
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  14. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    On a basically intellectual level, I'd tend to agree, but one of the few rules I do abide by for my Eclectic Box collection is "straight grades only", with the possible exception of shipwreck coins, or great rarities, hypothetically.

    (My other collections, notably the "holey" coins and the love tokens - and my detector finds album- are a different story, obviously.)

    So this one will be moving on, but that doesn't mean I won't have enjoyed the few months I owned it. I'll try again later with a different example, perhaps. I do love the type, as mentioned.
     
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  15. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    A 9+ from me, it would've been a 10 if within German borders. Great coin and eye appeal, even with the scratch.
     
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  16. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Correction. I've been to Metz and have upgraded it to a 10, as deserved. Great choice :)
     
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  17. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    @FitzNigel owns it now, and has liberated it from the plastic, which I probably would have done myself, if I wasn’t such a “slave to the slab” in my primary collection.

    But had I not been a slave to straight-graded TPG plastic, I almost certainly would have kept it. So my fetish for slab labels gave him the opportunity to acquire it.

    If I exclusively collected ancients and medievals, I’d probably be much less fixated on slabs, and would use Abafil trays or something like that.

    I am pleased that it has found a good home and is free from the plastic tomb, despite being the person who entombed it in the first place. Some coins apparently just don’t belong in slabs.
     
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  18. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Knowing you were the one who paid for it to be slabbed did give me some hesitation about posting my break-out photos. But I suspected you may have known that was coming. It is a lovely coin - and the scratches mean little to me (since most of my Medievals have some kind of founding scratch on them anyway)
     
  19. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    I’m totally cool with the crackout and think it was appropriate here. Besides, it’s your coin now. :)

    BTW, if I find the Künker am Dom flip, I’ll send that along. After 19 years of working out of briefcases and boxes on the kitchen table or wherever I could find two square feet of space, I have finally got a home office to get organized in! The valuable coins will remain offsite in safe deposit, but I’ll have somewhere for packaging and shipping and files and paperwork and all that good stuff.
     
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  20. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Thank you! Always nice to have the paraphernalia to help with provenance
     
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  21. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    While many ancient and medieval coin collectors do not like the "TPG plastic " it does serve a very important purpose. It authenticates the coin when time comes for your heirs to sell it. Most of us are not fortunate to have an @Aethelred as a coin dealer close by. Most dealers would dismiss it as a possible fake. The plastic protects the coin from further harm. I've bought a few medieval coins over the years that are in plastic and that's where they'll stay.
     
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