Featured Fourth Meris problems: What's this? Could it be?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, May 6, 2021.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    I've been on the hunt for a coin from the forth Meris of Macedonia without much luck.
    As we all know, once Perseus tried striking back at Rome after they had just crushed his father's resistance, enough was enough. Rome split Macedon into 4 different pieces, or as they called them Meris's.
    The first Meris coins are plentiful (don't worry I've added my 2 below). The second Meris is more of a bucket list coin. But they are easy to get if your wallet is DEEP. Strangely, the third Meris has no known coins that we can identify as theirs. And then lastly, the fourth Meris. Which only made a few bronze coins.
    I LOVE little Greek bronze coins. Especially when they are from Macedonia!
    And then I happened upon this little hot mess as it jumped out at me from my coin cabinet as I was perusing my MSCs:

    that I bought as:
    Philip V – Perseus
    (187-168 BC). Æ (22mm). Uncertain Macedonian mint. Diademed head of Poseidon r. R/ Club; monograms above and below; all within oak wreath. Cf. Draganov 789. Brown patina

    Looking on ACsearch the Draganov 789 and all the rest of the Phili V and carry my Perseus do look kinda like my trainwreck...but they are not concave and the hair isn't long and wet looking like poseidon. Often this type has a trident behind Poseidon's head and a stick of trident in his mouth.
    Here is an example from AC search:


    However, the coins of the Fourth Meris ARE concave and have Zeus. AC search example:

    Not to get ahead of myself as I am not sold that mine even says Makedon. As well, the fourth Meris coins appear to have an NE monogram at the top of the reverse, and my stick of chewed bubble gum appears to only have the E. Does this mean it is not the fourth meris. Is it a coin of the fabled third meris?! Probably not.

    To that point. The third meris was the capital. Why wouldn't they mint any coins in their capital?

    Back to the search; of all places Sparta has similar coins..though that is a bridge too far as the reverse is notably different:

    So that's that. I couldn't find anything else that remotely looks like my coin on AC search.
    Do you all think this is a fourth meris coin?

    To catch anyone up that isn't aware of the history of Philip V and Perseus here is a wonderful little write up I came across on ACsearch that may help put this into context for some.

    "After the defeat of Perseus at the battle of Pydna in 168 BC, the Romans divided Macedonia into four separate autonomous administrative regions ( merides ). The first region (ΠPΩTEΣ) lay east of the Strymon with its capital at Amphipolis, the second (ΔEYTEPAΣ) between the Strymon and Axios with its capital at Thessalonica, the third between the Axios and Peneos with its capital at Pella, and the fourth (TETAPTHΣ) included most of Upper Macedonia with its capital at Heraclea Lynci. These four regions only lasted until 148 BC when the country was finally united to constitute a Roman Province and proceeded to issue coins under the authority of its legatus pro praetore .
    Livy informs us that initially all commerce between the regions, exploitation of the silver and gold mines and the importation of salt were forbidden. Almost all the coinage of this period is struck in the name of the first region and runs parallel to the mass coinages of Thasos and Maroneia from about 158 BC. The first region was the most prolific in its coin issues, striking huge issues of tetradrachms and bronze. The second region had only two issues of tetradrachms and the fourth had only two issues of bronzes. Coins from these two regions are very rare today. No coinage is known from the third region."
    Macedonia under Roman rule
    AR tetradrachm- 16,21 gram,31 mm, struck after 168AD at Amphipolis
    obv: diademed head of Artemis Tauropolos facing right with quiver over shoulder in the center of a Macedonian shield, shield decorated with seven eight-pointed stars within double crescents
    rev: Club of Herakles within oak wreath, monograms and legend around, thunderbolt at left
    AMNG III, 159, SNG Cop 1314, BMC 2
    Ex NB-Numismatics

    Macedon under Roman Rule - First Meris, Amphipolis AR Tetradrachm (167-149 BC)
    16.33 g. 30mm. VF-/VF Diademed and draped bust of Artemis to right, bow and quiver over shoulder, all within tondo of Macedonian shield / Horizontal club to right, ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΩΝ above, ΠΡΩΤΗΣ below, monogram in upper central field, two monograms below; all within oak wreath, thunderbolt to left. SNG Copenhagen 1314; AMNG III, 176. very fine, restored

    So yeah, any help in identifying this little cutie is appreciated and please share your coins of any Meris, Macedon/Macedonia/Makedon before or after Rome, Meris coins are appreciated and anything else that jumps out of your coin cabinet at you!
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  3. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

  4. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    I too like Macedonian coins, but I don’t have your knowledge of them, @Ryro

    Macedonia AE22.jpg

    Macedon Amphaxitis.jpg
    Amphaxitis, AE22 ca 187-168 BC.

    Struck under Philip V and Perseus.

    Obverse: Head of Herakles right, wearing lionskin headdress

    Reverse: AMΦA-XIΩN above and beneath club, ovN monogram below, all within wreath.

    Reference: AMNG III 78; Hunter 2; SNG Evelpidis 1134.

    Size: 22mm Weight: 11.69g

    Junius Sil red.jpg

    Macedonia under roman rule circa 166-165 BC.

    AE27 under Praetor D. Junius Silanus Manlianus

    Obverse: Facing mask of Silenos wearing ivy wreath

    Reverse: MAKE/DONWN in two lines; D above; all within wreath of ivy.

    Reference: MacKay pg. 8; Touratsoglou, Macedon, pl. 7, 25;
    AMNG III pg. 8, 6; SNG Copenhagen 1324.

    Size: 27 mm, Weight:11g
    Macedonia Rep provincial.jpg

    Roman Province of Macedonia
    AE23 Gaius Publilius, Questor 149 - 146 B.C.

    Obverse: Head of Roma right in helmet decorated with griffin.

    Reverse: MAKEDONWN TAMIOY GAIOY POPAILIOY in three lines within oak wreath.

    Reference: SNG Cop-1318

    Size: 23mm Weight: 8,79g
  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Macedonia, Roman Protectorate, First Meris, (167 - 148 B.C.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    O: Diademed and draped bust of Artemis right, bow and quiver over shoulder, in the center of a Macedonian shield.
    R: MAKEDONWN PRWTHS; Club; monogram above, two monograms below; all within oak wreath, thunderbolt to left.
    Amphipolis Mint
    SNG Copenhagen 1315 // AMNG 176
  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    RR Roman Occupied Macedonia Gaius Publilius, Questor Amphipolis Mint As AE26 As ROMA Griffin MAKEDONWN TAMIOV GAIOV POPAILIOV oak wreath BC 148-146 SNG COP 1318

    Macedon, Amphipolis
    AE Semis, 21mm, 9.0g, 12h; 187-31BC
    Obv.: Laureate head of Zeus right.
    Rev.: AMΦIΠO / ΛITΩN; prow right, S to left, monograms to right.
    Reference: cf. SNG Cop 69 / Rare
    Ex: @John Anthony
    COMMENT: This is minted by locals in Amphipolis during the Roman Republic control of Macedonia. Clearly inspired by RR bronze types, with the local variations of a very long-necked figurehead

    RR Prv Macedon Province 168-166 BC Tamios Quaestor Athena Cow - Eeyore
    zumbly, Spaniard, Volodya and 9 others like this.
  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    RR Macedon occupation Alexander - Club Coin chest Quaestor Chair wreath Aesillas Quaestor AR Tet Thessalonika Mint BC 90-70
  8. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths Supporter

    Hope you find this interesting...on academia.edu

    *Many thanks are due to Michel Amandry for providing references to auctions and photos and also to Melih Arslan for the photo of the coin in the Sinope Museum.
    SUMMARY This article assembles the dispersed material of a series of Hellenistic tetradrachms of the first district (meris) of Macedonia. By combining the evidence of the dies, the monograms and the style of the coins we have proposed a sequence for the successive issues. Furthermore, we have discussed the chronology of the series based on the evidence of the hoards as well as on historical and numismatic considerations; a date to the late Antigonid period, during the reigns of Philip V or Perseus, can be securely established. Finally, the head of Zeus Dodonaios on the obverse of the coins, a type introduced on the bronze coinage of Philip V, has been considered to reflect the close political ties between Macedonia and Epiros, at a time when the ruler of Macedonia was a grandson of Pyrhhos.The type of the Tauropolos on the reverse was an evident choice for an issue minted at Amphipolis, capital of the first district
    F019_015_KREMIDI-SISILIOYteliko 14/10/2009 02:09 πµ Page 191
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  9. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    Thanks for sharing, but it looks like the attachments aren't loading right?
  10. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths Supporter

    Yeah... forget the attachments go to academia!
    Ryro likes this.
  11. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    We have a bingo, @Ryro!!

    Screen Shot 2021-05-08 at 12.28.30 PM.jpg
    MACEDON, Amphaxitis. Circa 187-168 BC. Æ 20mm (5.52 g, 1h). Head of Herakles right, wearing lion skin / Club; monograms above and below; all within wreath. AMNG III 73 ; SNG Copenhagen 36 var. (monograms). VF, dark green patina, some roughness. Rare.

    The suggestion of a lion skin on obverse left plus the oak leaves got me going in the right direction. A pretty rare coin, it seems... and amazingly enough, the seller got the temporal attribution spot on!
    zumbly, TIF, Spaniard and 3 others like this.
  12. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    You NAILED IT Sevs!!!:singing:
    Don't know that I've seen the type before. I kept looking through Zeus or Poseidon club wreath coins:bucktooth:
    Thanks buddy. Even if it's not from the short lived, fourth meris it's from a very cool time in history and nice to put to bed.
    Severus Alexander likes this.
  13. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    My pleasure! It was fun to do the sleuthing. Of course I should be hard at work on AMCC3. Well, I am, I promise, but I needed a break. ;)
    Ryro likes this.
  14. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    Love, peace and hairgrease.
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  15. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    My Fourth Meris is a pretty worn example, but I was very pleased when I was able to snag it. Hope one comes your way soon, @Ryro.

    Macedon - Fourth Meris AE 2912.jpg MACEDONIA, Roman Protectorate, Fourth Meris
    AE23. 8.47g, 22.7mm. MACEDON, as Roman Protectorate, Fourth Meris. Heraclea Lynci mint, circa 167-149 BC. SNG Cop 1316; Weber 3709; MacKay pl. III, 12; AMNG III/1, 188. O: Head of Zeus right, wearing laurel wreath. R: Club; monogram and MAKEΔONΩN above, TETAPTHΣ and monogram below; all within oak wreath; thunderbolt to left.

    And here's another favorite bronze of mine from Macedon. It's traditionally attributed with a "time of Philip V – Perseus" descriptor, but HGC gets more specific and puts forward the theory that these were in fact struck by the pretender, Philip Andriskos. The story is that he had gone to the Seleukid court to seek the help of Demetrios against the Romans. Even though he didn't get the troops he was looking for, he did return to Macedon with some Syrian mint workers who produced for Andriskos these serrate bronzes that recall contemporary Seleukid issues.

    Macedon - Philip V Serrate Poseidon.jpg
    MACEDON, the Macedonians. Time of Philip VI Andriskos (?)
    AE Serrate. 10.0g, 25mm. MACEDON, Amphipolis mint, probably under Philip VI Andriskos, circa 149-148 BC. SNG Cop 1294; HGC 3.1, 331 (S). O: Diademed head of Poseidon right, trident over shoulder. R: MAKE-ΔONΩN, club; monograms below left and right; all within oak wreath.
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