First ancient acquisitions what do you think?

This thread is an interesting example of the new directions the hobby is taking and why some of us have trouble holding our tongues. First someone pays extra for a slabbed coin from a known shipwreck but then asks if the coin shoul be cleaned to remove the black stuff. You paid as much for the black stuff as you did for the coin. When you remove the coin from that slab it can not be put back so you lost the added value of the slab. Ordinarily that is not a big thing since many of us won't touch slabs (we like to be able to examine our coins). When you remove the link to the wreck, it becomes a damaged coin rather than a piece of history. Your choice.

The Caracalla is a decent coin worth $50. Beginners will pay extra for the plastic coffin so you might be able to sell it to someone for half what you paid (which is usually the mark up that dealers expect when buying back coins). The correct move here was to study sales and ask questions before buying but none of us do that. The best move from here is to enjoy what you have in the form that it is in now. Poor choices involving silver polish and pry bars could turn $475 into $75 when you sell the coins to people who like them more natural. I don't collect modern Spanish (wet or dry) and have nicer Caracallas which I bought more or less the same way as medoraman's group (patience helps here). Be happy with the coins; they are nicer than many we see here in similar posts.

 

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Well this is a learning experience to say the least. I realize that ebay is not exactly the best place to buy ancient coins. I do prefer buying slabbed coins but I may be able to save some money in the future if I do some research. I'll stay away from cleaning slabbed coins. I realized that I overpaid for the coins and have already seen some better deals on similar coins. But I have not found a Caracalla in better condition for cheaper. Please let me know of any ancient dealers I can order similar coins for a better price. And are there any good books on learning how to tell an ancient counterfeit from an authentic coin?

 

I feel your pain, about the counterfeits. I have purchased 2 ancient fakes this year. I got my money back and destroyed the fakes.

 

In my personal experience, the most thorough and possibly the fastest way to learn about good prices on ancient coins (and my definition of "ancient" is any coin older than 1,000 years) is to use the Internet and visit dozens of different dealers who are offering those coins for sale. As has been previously suggested in this forum, the VCoins site is an EXCELLENT source of ancient coin dealers and prices:

http://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ancient/Default.aspx

You can spend, literally, DAYS browsing each individual dealer's site to see what coins they offer and compare competitive prices for coins in which you're interested. Also, these dealers are less likely to knowingly deal in fakes and counterfeits, so you have some measure of protection against purchasing a counterfeit coin. In addition, you can search ALL dealers in this site for a specific ancient coin (e.g., "Caligula denarius") if you want to narrow your search or explore a specific ancient period.

Next, I would suggest NOT buying on EBay until you've searched the VCoins site to see if any VCoins dealers have the equivalent coin that's being auctioned on EBay. If you find one on VCoins, the probability is that the dealer's coin will be lower in price, or better in quality, or both. I have found this to be especially true for higher-priced ancients, where the EBay price seems to be 100% - 300% higher than what the coin is worth, and the condition of the coin is usually vastly overstated on EBay.

Additional research can be done on the Ancient Coin Search Engine site, acsearch.info, at

www.acsearch.info.

You simply type a description of the coin (e.g., "Claudius aureus imper recept") into the search box and hit return. This site will give you extensive lists of coins matching your description THAT HAVE BEEN SOLD AT PREVIOUS AUCTIONS. You can refine your search with additional descriptors, or narrow your search to specific auctions. One thing to be aware of is that acsearch.info will generally give you much more highly priced coins than VCoins will, since coins that are sold at auction tend to be better coins or rarer coins that command higher prices that can only be attained via well-know auction houses. When using this site, keep in mind that the final auction price of a coin does NOT include the buyer's premium, which is typically 15% - 20%. Thus, a coin that auctions for $1,000 will typically cost the buyer $1,150 - $1,200 plus shipping.

Good luck!

 

One other bit of advice about ancients. We are not NEARLY so condition conscience as US collectors. Yes, we might want to buy VF coins, but a gF if a nice coin is acceptable. A VF+ is ok, but we aren't going to get terribly excited about it, especially if its a common coin. You may not be able to tell from my poor photos, but at least the Gordian III's were nice VF+ to XF coins. To me they are a yawn, since they are common, but I did buy them simply because they were cheap for nice coins.

I guess my point is we are much more interested in what the coin IS, not its condition. Except for a few dealers who came over from US collecting, you will not hear the words "condition census", or "rare in this grade" in ancients. We deal with REAL rarities, and while its nice to have it in a nice grade, we are not like US numismatics where a 63 morgan might be worth $40, but a 66 is worth $2000. Here, a nice VF might be worth $50, and a FDC, (our highest grade), of the same coin might be $200. Might be, might be only $100 if its a really common coin.

See the difference? To us, the coin is worth the most money, and makes it the most valuable, NEVER the condition. One of the many reasons I love ancients more than US coins now.

 

There are some books, but they aren't terribly effective. I have a few and find them pretty rudimentary. Personally, I believe you would learn as much reading about fakes on here.

The real key to identifying fakes is handling a ton of real coins. I cannot stress enough the value of seeing a lot of ancients in person. Go to NYI or CICF or the SF bourse, or other areas where you can see a lot of authentic ancients in person. If not, spend lots of time reading books about ancients, or seeing good ones online. After a while your eye will spot the fakes most of the time.

 

I disagree with much of this. Ancient prices are condition sensitive but do not play the game of ten different levels of mint state with each selling for several times the one below it. Almost no ancients are MS grade. There are a few EF and many VF with price differences not all that different proportionally to the US grade system. However the vast majority of ancient coins would be ungradeable by US slabbing standards due to faults, cleaning problems or striking weakness. I hate to see beginners pay big money for ancients with little wear but horrid, rough surfaces or chipped edges just because a similarly wearless beauty was listed as selling for that much on acsearch.com. You will see ancients sold as "rare in this grade" and there are coins that do not exist above Fine grade. The system is not the same as US but there is a grade/price scale that is more based on eye appeal than on things that can be defined like the number of letters in Liberty that show or whether the steps on a monument are fully formed.

I believe ancients comply rather well with the original Sheldon grading scale before the crazies hit. The original concept was that a basal coin worth $1 was worth $70 in perfect Proof and $35 for a VF in the middle. If an MS63 in this system were to be valued at $63 then an MS65 would sell for $2 more not 20 times more. I believe a denarius in Fine worth $20 might bring $35 in VF and $50 in EF with all other faults being equal. Of course all faults are never equal so we will never test this for sure.

There are so few exact duplicate ancients that are seen regularly in a great range of grades and so very few that we see in super high degrees of perfection that each sale is a separate matter between buyer and seller rather than based on a Red Book. It is quite possible to find a dozen coins honestly graded VF that look absolutely nothing like each other because of their different strikes and different faults any one of which would cause the coin to be avoided like the plague by mainstream US collectors. How do you relate a coin with missing legends and better hair detail to one with worse hair but better legends? Several attempts have been made to set up a grading system for ancients that would rank coins in a way most of us could accept but all have failed. Many/most of us will pay more for a VF than a F but fewer of us will ever agree on what it takes to make a coin gradable by a couple letters rather than a paragraph. It might be fun to put together a group of ten examples of the same coin and see how many of us could even agree which was the nicest or the worst of the group let alone which was worth a dollar more or less. We are a strange bunch.

 

This is what I was trying to relate, so evidently did it poorly. Yes, of course, a VF sells for more than a F, it always will. But, like the sheldon scale would dictate, a F might be $20, and a VF $35. In US numismatics, it might be more like triple to go from F to VF. It would BE more in US except most of this disproportionate chasing of "condition rarities" happens at the upper spectrum, which will be MS coins.

Yes, you can see "scarce this nice", but its more of a descriptor. We don't buy "high grade" coins because of some perceived scarcity of the high grade ignoring the coin, right? Are there ancients sold as gXF ancients like MS65 morgans get sold regularly, (to ancient collectors)?

That was my only, (poorly made evidently), point.

P.S. Btw Swervo, forgot one other piece of advice. Go to Doug website and read all of the terrific articles there. One of the best places on the web for a beginning ancient collector!

 

We do see gXF or AU coins sold but these are usually slabbed by the companies that are not interested in the experienced market but cater to the US collectors who want an ancient or two to say they have one. They are conditioned to want a bright shiny bauble so they would rather have a polished Severus Alexander than a toned Pertinax. This works because you can buy some coins in bulk easier than others.

While I appreciate the kind words and always welcome people willing to read any or all of my pages, here I'll suggest you read my Grading pages. When you finish you will not be able to grade ancient coins but you might understand why no one else can either unless they write a paragraph about each coin. Please not this link takes you only to a page offering three choices based on Standard wear based grading (the least important), Things that went wrong at the mint and Things that went wrong after the coin left the mint. These last two sections hardly apply to modern coins but they are 90% of what is important in grading an ancient. Those new to the hobby might never have considered that such things might happen to a coin.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/grade.html

 

I'm going to look through all the info you guys just gave and I'll get back to you! I am just glad I didnt go on a spending spree. It's funny you mentioned the gordian III coin I was looking at that and the Philip I coin. They are both in great (vf to xf) condition so it was tempting to spend the cash as they are pleasing to the eye. Thanks again. This thread will be a reference for me for months to come.

 

So, I just received my denarius and must say that I am pleased. This is my first ancient purchase and also my first graded coin purchase. After doing research and checking out the articles and various dealers I realize that I may have overpaid, but not by much. At least not on the denarius. I probably could have found a similar coin for a bit cheaper but at this quality I may have overpaid a bit. (not my worst investment) the lettering is all there on the coin. It is very well centered, has great luster/eye appeal, slight wear on the finest details. It is graded vf but I believe that is on the higher end of vf. this is what I can tell from online sources.

I may not have been so lucky with the shipwreck 8 reales coin. I have noticed many coins of similar or greater condition selling for far less. One seemed to be in a mint state and sold for a few dollars more than I bought my coin. Although I have not gotten it yet and the toning is pretty dark it may turn out to be a nicer specimen in person. Either way I am glad to have gone through this experience as it has changed my outlook and knowledge. I would like to eventually start cleaning ancient coins but I know I have a long way to go. Thanks again for all the links and info. If you have anything else to add please do.