Finally a genuine Septimius Severus (Killer Portrait!)

A fantastic portrait of his @Sallent !

My Sept Sev favourite portrait (from the ones I possess) is a later one though :


Septimius Severus, Antoninianus Rome mint AD 250/251
DIVO SEVERO, Radiate head right
CONSECRATIO Large altar
4.02 gr
Ref : RIC IV # 96, Cohen # 800, RCV # 9483
in qblay's catalog : SE02/P267

Q

 

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That portrait looks like a snapshot of Severus! Has to be close to what he really looked like.

My nicest Severus portrait is on a fouree. Actually I don't know if it is dark silver, fouree or fake.

 

I wasn't going to dispute this since the vast majority of collectors agree with you and love that corkscrew pretty boy. I am more a fan of the early soldier faces.
Septimius was emperor for a long time and changed his appearance from a working soldier to something of an Imperial despot. The bill for his hair care obviously went up as the reign went on. Here are a few of my favorites (all Rome mint):
193



197


198-201 - tighter curls came after he had polished off the Parthian threat and he had more time for grooming.


209


...but since you mentioned liking coins of his trip up north, why now go for one from his last couple years with obverse legend ending in BRIT? If you think he looks old and tired, he probably was. Your coin is a nice late portrait.

 

Surprisingly I really like the first one you posted, from 193AD. I like that it shows the wrinkles on his forehead. He looks like a tough soldier. The British expedition one is very nice too. You can definitely see the strain of old age and illness on his face.

I think I'll definitely look for one mentioning Britania eventually. Thanks @dougsmit . I knew you'd have some really interesting ones to show off. When it comes to Severus you have the ultimate collection.

 

While I like the last in Doug's coins.

 

Your new coin is very attractive - however, calling the old one a "forgery" is a bit of a misnomer. Actually, so is the name by which this class of piece is known - "Limes Denarius" - since this name is a conflation of the LIMES FALSA British and Gallic underweight copies of 1st century BC and AD Æ - mainly Asses, with the obvious intention of the creators to make as close a copy as possible of a denarius. These tend to come from the Balkans. They used to be (I'm talking 70's/80's here) a fairly scarce curiosity. In recent years they have become quite common. The numbers in which they exist alone tends to rule out any sort of "counterfeiting". The actual reason for these low-grade billon (sometimes silvered) pieces to exist is unknown, but in the quantities in which they are now known, they must have circulated side-by-side with or been a replacement for regal coin. Perhaps they were a stopgap measure to make up for insufficient supplies of regal coin from the Empire in order that trade not be overly depressed by lack of coin. Some have theorized that these were created as a sort of military "scrip" - to be redeemed for good coin at some later date, but good enough for the soldiers' uses until then, and as a way to keep invaders from capturing amounts of currency sufficient to cause economic problems.
The fact of the matter is we don't really know why they exist, or why they exist in such great numbers, but they really don't fit the profile for "forgeries", ie: counterfeits made to deceive.

 

We may have a terminology problem here. I do not consider ancient copies, limes or fourrees to be forgeries whether or not they were intended to fool people or to serve as monies of necessity. However, the coin in question does not convince me that it is more than a hundred years old. That is a major problem with collecting unofficial issues. There will be some that are certainly not official but we just can not be sure whether they were made then or now. Currently there are quite a few non-official Roman Republicans in the market and some of them may very well be products of border people or ancient criminals whose appeal has been increased by a couple thousand years. I have a few 'wild' Septimius coins that I believe are most certainly ancient but explaining why and proving my feelings are not comfortable subjects for me. For example, I would love to think that the coins below are ancient even though they are most certainly not official however, my more realistic thoughts tend to make them things made to fool collectors 50 to 300 years ago and, therefore, 'modern' fakes rather than limes lefties. The kiss of death is their being off center in a matching way. I bought the top one from NFA (sale XXXIII lot 1604). Who would have thought they were crooks?

 

@lehmansterms and @dougsmit

My original S. Severus was 100% a modern forgery (probably 100+ years old). It was confirmed by Barry Murphy of NGC as a cast fake, and using 100x magnification on the edge I was able to photograph the cast seam, which had deceptively been worn down somehow and wasn't really noticeable under 10x magnification...but once I put the edges under high power magnification and shined a lot of LED lighting to it, it popped out. If you search my original post on the coin, you can see the pictures of the casting seam and gate. I'd post it now, but I don't remember what I did with my JPG copy of the picture of the coin's edge. Just do a search for Septimius Severus fake and my name in the forum, and you'll find it.

 

My favorite portrait. Also a Consecratio

 

Doug and Sallant - first off, I'm always eager to hear Doug's interpretations - and as usual he does not disappoint. My main "contribution" to the discussion at this point would be that so far as I know, the presumed ancient "Limes Denarii" were cast - so discovering a casting line around the rim or a sprue pontil does not seem like much of an indicator of modern(-ish) origin. There have been a significant number of clay "battery molds" discovered which had been created apparently by pressing genuine coins into clay, one side to each side of a coin-sized, round, flat piece of clay, and the impressed discs resulting were then arranged in clay "wrappers" resulting in an appearance rather like quarter rolls with an open groove down one side to allow the metal to be poured into the voids. I have seen photos of these molds. They tend to be found, so far as I know, in the same places the Limes pieces presumably are found before they find their way into lots of uncleaned Balkan-found coins. This provenance makes for many folks writing to various forums asking "What the heck is this I found in my uncleaned coins?".
However, any solid evidence that they are of more modern manufacture would be of great interest. I wouldn't want to keep spreading theories which have been debunked. The theory that they were made to be something on the order of "Grand Tour souvenirs" for folks who probably couldn't tell the difference and wouldn't have cared if they could is very attractive, too.
The possibility also exists that we are talking about more than one sort of similar looking piece with separate origins - some ancient, some more modern - that merely tend to resemble each other. If so, this could encompass both Barry's explanation and the fact that I have seen many of them indistinguishable, except for their subjects, from the worn uncleaned ancient coins in the midst of lots of which they tend to be found.

http://www.stoa.org/gallery/Chaos-and-the/03_Sept_Sev_Denarius_Pax
This is more typical of the sort of pieces I associate with the term "Limes Denarius" and that seem mostly to be found in uncleaned lots.
Another, similar -
http://www.stoa.org/gallery/Chaos-and-the/02_Sept_Sev_Denarius_Jupiter

 

Sallent, that's definitely a looker. Nice pickup.

Doug H.

 

welcome @lehmansterms

 

A great choice!

 

Thanks Chrsmat71 - this seems like a good, varied forum - and it seems I already know a number of the respondents. Looking forward to some good discussions.

 

Here's my only Sept Sev. Worn, but the cool thing about it for me is that I know where it was found (Yorkshire, England).

 

One of my few coins of this emperor. One day I'd like to have a nice collection of denarii.

 

I have this one too, which I really want to read up on, and which desperately needs a new photograph!

AE 20, 4.23g, Septimius Severus & Abgar VIII, Edessa, Mesopotamia, ca. 193-211 AD, Obv: Laureate head of Severus facing right; Rev: Draped and diademed bust of Abgar VIII facing right, wearing tiara. B.M.C. Mesopotamia p.96, 35.

 

You guys play rough! It is pretty bad when your best look is when you are dead!


Slightly more unusual are postumous Provincials like the Odessa: