Fake return etiquette

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by hotwheelsearl, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    I occasionally buy coins off of eBay.

    I've been aware for some time now of this seller as one that sells obvious fakes, and one to avoid. It is not a 'one-off' or honest mistake with this one. It is intentional deception.

    They are even listed as a 'known fake-seller' on fake-seller lists. The guy is a scumbag scammer. It angers me that eBay allows dishonest crooks like this to continue to deceive buyers. Sellers like this are a direct threat to the hobby and the enjoyment of collectors new and old.
     
    Theodosius and DonnaML like this.
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  3. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Ironically, he actually messaged me back with a picture of a Nero sestertius he bought asking if I thought it was authentic, as "you seem to know more than I do."
     
    NewStyleKing likes this.
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    If you knew in advance that he was a known fake-seller and still bought the coin from him, I think you should keep the coin for your 'Black Museum' and eat the $42 as tuition in the school of tough love. If you were innocent and ignorant and were taken in by a smooth talking criminal, I might have some pity for you but buying even a genuine coin from a known fake-seller you are sending his kids to pick-pocket and scammer school which makes you part of the problem.

    I don't like the concept of defacing / destroying coins you think are fake because I have seen perfectly good coins condemned by people who think they know the thing is fake. A few years ago, there was a relatively well known seller that listed Eastern mint denarii as barbarous or imitations 'as-is'. I agree the coin is bad in this case but suggest you commute its sentence to life imprisonment and try to learn from it. One of the coins highest on my want list is a fake I was shown fifty years ago. It was an as of Severus Alexander (I think) tooled into a Pescennius Niger. My 'Black Museum' really wants that coin. Please don't destroy it.

    In the picture below, which coins are fake and which deserve to be destroyed. Governor, at least one of these is innocent. More? You say 'Kill'em all'?
    quiz3.jpg
     
  5. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Doug, I understand where you're coming from.
    I did not know he was a known fake seller before buying. However, I should have done my due diligence in research before buying. So I wasn't suckered as an innocent, I was suckered as one who failed to do any pre-work.

    Should I suck up the cost? Probably. However, he's already agreed to a refund, and, in seemingly good faith, claimed he'd contact the one who sold it to him.

    As for your picture, I'll condemn C, E, G, and L to the chopping block.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  6. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    I'll play.

    A --- Looks to be a 'Barbarian'
    B --- Looks to be legit
    C --- Looks to be a 'Paduan'
    D --- Looks to be a 'Fouree'
    E --- Looks to be a 'Slavei'
    F --- Looks to be 'Barbarian'
    G --- Looks to be a cast 'Becker Type'
    H --- Looks to be a 'Modern Cast'
    I --- I can't tell w/ picture --- Also a 'Modern Cast'?
    J --- I can't tell w/ picture -- might fool me if not genuine. The reverse is strange.
    K ---I can't tell w/ picture -- Looks 'soapy' though. Condition would cause me to pass anyways.
    L --- Looks to be a 'Paduan'



    How'd I do?
     
  7. fomovore

    fomovore Active Member

    As far as I remember, eBay doesn't let you leave negative feedback: if you try giving a seller fewer than three stars, eBay will prompt you to contact the seller and work it out; and if you get a refund, there will no longer be an option to leave any feedback.
     
    hotwheelsearl likes this.
  8. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I didn't know that. In that case, negative away :)
     
  9. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    Ancient Greek coins ebay has never in the last 10 years of my collecting life so many egregious fakes as now. I guess Romans are even worse with many original coins looking fake when produced 1700 years or so ago!
    As eBay acts as a solely as an intermediary between seller and buyer it seems to be able to get away with murder just like "Thief-taker" extraordinaire Jonathan Wild.
    He went too far when he started turning in some of his underlings for the reward who was subsequently "turned off".
    He himself, subsequently faced the hangman's noose and he wasn't happy about it and tried to commit suicide but to no avail, he faced the booing, hissing dung-throwing crowd and had a hard death suffocating as he swung.
    His skeleton is in the Hunterian collection! So he was anatomised too!

    Who thinks Mr E-bay should suffer the fate of Mr Wild?
     
    Theodosius likes this.
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    IMO H is the only one that could be destroyed without loss to the history of numismatics would be H but it serves as a good example of what it is and can help people learn the characteristics of a cast. In particular, I consider Paduans coins in their own right with the earlier ones being older than all US coinage. It brings up the question as to when a fake becomes collectable on its own merits. 500 years? 200? 20? When the radical archaeologists have their way and private ownership of coins is made illegal, will they go after our fakes, too?

    This photo was taken from my quiz page which was my favorite that I ever did that received absolutely no popular interest. I am not sure I could pass it today. Maybe it was too hard and people prefer tests they can ace??? It was designed to defeat people who would use Google to find answers but that no longer works since Google has been expanded to search photos. It is impossible to keep up with coin fakers or software engineers.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/quiz.html
     
    Herodotus and DonnaML like this.
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    For those who no longer think history is just the study of buffoons wearing crowns, I'll attach a link on Jonathan Wild. It will be of no value here to our members who don't even collect coins of usurpers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Wild

    To illustrate why history is an interesting study, I'll link the Wikipedia page for the year Jonathan Wild was hanged.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1725
    It should drive most of you to research at least one point more in depth. Part of me regrets that there is not similar coverage of every year in the Ancient world and that we do not have a page on the criminals and everyday people of the period we study. The other part of me admits that I can't keep up with what is known about antiquity even when so much material has survived only scantily. How does one study modern history (only a few hundred years old)?
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  12. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Yes. You must return as is.
     
    NewStyleKing likes this.
  13. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    I only buy from established well known sites and dealers. Of the dozen or so fakes I have unwittingly purchased (I have intentionally bought some fakes to study) I only returned one. The others I shared my concerns with the dealer, telling them I was keeping the coin as a lesson and for future reference. Though not requested, all offered and most sent me refunds anyway.

    The one coin I returned was from a VCoins dealer. When I shared my doubts and requested a refund, he balked. He quoted VCoins policy, but argued no one had complained about that consigner before. I found that hard to believe, given the poor quality of the obvious fake I had received, which in no way matched the photos.

    He eventually admitted he had never seen the coin(!). Though not located there, he said he was consigning coins for “a reputable dealer” out of Eastern Europe.

    After much back and forth we agreed I’d send him the coin. If after examining it personally he still thought it authentic, I would accept it back. He examined it then insisted on sending it to the consigner to verify it was the same coin that person had sent me. It was then we learned the consigner was actually based out of China and was drop shipping through Eastern Europe. Anyway long story short, months later I received a refund, less the expensive shipping both ways.

    Based on past experiences there are a few VCoins dealers whose offerings I scrutinize especially carefully, but he remains the only one I will never buy from again under any circumstances.

    The point is this: good dealers operate with the goal of improving the relationship and the hobby, bad dealers operate with the goal of profiting off the hard work of the good dealers. If for no other reason, patronize good dealers. It’s no secret who they are.

    If you do take a chance on a questionable seller and it doesn’t work out, look at it this way, you paid a price in time and money to learn a valuable lesson.
     
  14. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    In the early days I sent back a NewStyle which I had inadvertently bought from a seller on Forum's NFS list. He took it back but said it's definitely genuine and I could buy it back. I didn't.
    What a mistake.....it was as genuine as the day is long and a great example! Gnash Gnash. I know a hell of a lot more than I did 11/12 years ago!
     
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