Fake Rainbow Toned Coins - Artificial Colors

I have read this thread fairly thoroughly and am very impressed and educated. NGC has a lot of these threads, yet with lot of insults and wild accusations and character attacks. This was a great example of let's agree to disagree.

I have bought toned coins and have been more interested in them of late. Some things I feel after all these posts. I do not agree that album toning or envelope toning is AT. Most beautifully toned coins came from these or bags (Morgans) that MOST people would consider this NT I think?. I specifically bought a Dansco Album for my Lincolns that I want to tone. I hope they do and soon. I think the TPG's have a lot to lose if they started putting QT on the slabs. Those who paid 10-20 x bid will be furious and will have lost a lot of money IMHO- the market for toned coins would be shaken. Do we need any more financial dissappointments right now? Coins are at least holding their value nicely IMO.
I mostly agree with Doug- if you can't tell who cares. Show a toned coin to a non-numismatic person along side a blast white coin. I would estimate that most of them would pic the nicely toned coin over the white one. Besides if Mr White hadn't emphasized "White is best" (get it?) in his book Coin Chemistry we might not have so many overdipped coins. I'll take an AT coin over a dull washed out coin all day long. I think many would agree with this point. That's all I can say as novice compared to you expert types.

 

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One other point I forgot to make. The TPG's being inconsistent helps their bottom line. It's like going to the horse races- you just might win so you keep coming back. Putting QT on the coins and being consistent would eliminate a whole profession for some. It would result in less graded coins. Dipping might go on the rise-UGH.
I also think that TPG's slab coins to protect those coins for future generations. If all coins in the entire world (rare or high grade) were slabbed there would be a lot less damage to coins, whether by accident or intent.This could be both altruistic (for the good of the hobby/profession) and self-serving. Das alls I gots to says bout that.

 

Boss,

Let me understand what you are saying. You are saying the TPG's are inconsistent on purpose. I can't agree with that. Consistency is all they have, without it, they are out of business.

Also you are saying, if they put QT on the labels, then the coin doctors would be out of business. This is exactly what the TPG's want. It is the entire reason they body bag coins for AT (see post#91). It seems that you were disagreeing with the QT idea but supporting it's feasibility at the same time.

Whether it would result in less coin submissions is unclear. I would think the doctors will still sumbit knowing they would get a graded slabbed coin in return and hoping it would not have a QT designation.

 

Boss, While I don't think you give yourself enough credit with the "novice" talk, I think you make a few good points that are worth repeating:

"think the TPG's have a lot to lose if they started putting QT on the slabs. Those who paid 10-20 x bid will be furious and will have lost a lot of money IMHO- the market for toned coins would be shaken."

and

"The TPG's being inconsistent helps their bottom line. It's like going to the horse races- you just might win so you keep coming back. Putting QT on the coins and being consistent would eliminate a whole profession for some. It would result in less graded coins. Dipping might go on the rise-UGH."

Well said, and part of the reason, IMO, the status-quo is here to stay....Mike

p.s. IMO, your words above are not "novice" observations by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Boss: I think the QT designation would cause the whole community to question their own slabbed toned coins. That would the same as CAC as far as I am concerned. All of a sudden people would be fearful and unsure of their own toned coins and all potential purchases. Having a QT on the coin would be like saying "altered surfaces" , cleaned, etc.. This would have the same effect as "genuine". Anyone bought a genuine PCGS lately? Unless it's an ultra rarity I don't think you'll be doing this any time soon, unless you want to crack out and sell raw which would actually make more money on the coin. Are they going to start a registry set of genuines with a big "1" point per coin. 50 coins=50 points. Yippy!

Also I am not sure if the TPG's want the doctors out of business. I think we would love to be a fly on the wall in the closed door P&L reviews at PCGS and NGC with the big dogs. They are a for profit business. Coin doctors create multiple resubmissions trying to either get their coins graded or upgraded. Strict criteria will stop this. (Lehigh- I think?? you already admitted they don't follow their stated criteria, so they are inconsistent). Lot's of people affected. I think the system is fine the way it is. If your good enough to fool the TPG's who by experience alone are the experts (imagine looking at coins 40 hours a week year after year and having to get agreement with 2 other professionals on the grade??) I for once, entirely agree with Doug here. Also, I think toned coins are more attractive than non toned and frankly if the coins are hairlined or damaged under the toning then the coin is actually protected. It's better than verdigris filling in the damage which is often the case.

For Mike: I don't really know how to quote 2 different poeple in posts without cut and paste. I will lay off the novice references. I have only been involved in coins a couple years. I feel most here have been doing it a lot longer so I don't feel I have earned a lot of speaking power. If you go on Collector's Universe you really get that feeling. Stewart Blaine? talking about selling another memember an 80K coin like it was buying some new pants. Talk about intimidating. I will only occassionally lurk there. Thanks for the credit, BTW.

 

I have already stated that I don't believe that the AT coin doctor business that gets submitted to the TPG's is enough to even touch their bottom line. Would present owners of toned coins freak out? Probably, but in the long run they are better off than continuing to blindly believe they own an NT coin simply because it is in a TPG slab. I could care less how it affects the registry points. The fact is that if you owned a coin that was slabbed prior to the start of the QT designation, you are essentially grandfathered in. Just don't send it back for review.

I agree that it would cause prices of these coins to drop dramatically, but everyone I run into has already predicted that to happen anyway, so what is the difference. But lets be real, an MS65 coin with QT on the label is still an MS65 coin. The TPG is not saying it is AT, they just can't guarantee that it is not AT. Put it another way visually. Would you pay MS66 money for this coin if it had a QT on the label. I would and so would many others.



As it stands right now, this Appalachian toned Jefferson will sell easily over $500, even when most collectors agree that it is AT.

 

Well, interesting points, Lehigh. I can't argue with what you say, whether how much of the coin business is the coin docs. I really don't know. I was just speculating. I do think people care about registry points more than you think. I started several NGC registries and I feel there is one more clink in the chain when I add one in. I find it fun, and interesting which coins at what grades get how many points. I don't know the general consensus on this though. Great post and now to bed. I am tired.

 

I will admit that the registry is fun and I am caught up in the competition just as much as others, but the QT designation would only affect newly submitted coins. Anything already graded would be immune so to speak. I love all toned coins and feel a huge sense of freedom not being bound by the parameters of NT. The coin doctor that created the Appalachian Jeffersons (if they are AT) should be congratulated IMO for his superior craftsmanship. I own 5 of them and they are all gorgeous and I can't say for sure whether any of them are NT or AT. I know this, I will always be a proud owner of them despite the stigma they have received.

 

QT?? GD in alanguage that we can all understand please

 

QT = questionably toned -- toning that might be NT, but may be AT. I like to think of QT as all toned coins that aren't no-brainer NT and aren't no-brainer AT coins....and yes, to me QT includes the vast majority of toned coins.

 

I follow your logic better now, thanks for taking the time to explain yourself.

However, I'm still going to answer the same way -- it does matter to me.

That said, your example does bring up a very applicable cliche -- ignorance is bliss.

 

Yes he did, on the NGC forums some time ago, (to his credit) he posted the info summarized in the picture below:

 

Here's more than 10 AT coins all in one post:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=709972

If you'd like, I can pick out the coins I'm referring to, but I don't think it is necessary....Mike

 

I know it's been said before but once the QT label is put on a coin it might as well say authentic , for me I'll pay less , and I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice NT coin .
rzage

 

He’s not only a diplomat, he knows how to use innuendo, too. :whistle:

FYI, Arizona Jack gave us a link to a thread from another forum several months ago that was replete with AT coins slabbed by the major racketeers, I exaggerate with you not.

EDIT: FWIW, I was looking for that link, so I could cite to it, but I can't find it. I believe it was a CU link? Now what do you think the odds are Jack will come along and read this and provide the link?

 

I agree with that, it's a very beautiful coin...

 

finally a full post :thumb:

now the name and address of that gentlemen and i will be on my way to fame and fortune

 

I wanna see pics of this guys AT coins. Thats pretty awesome.

 

And I don't think he's exaggerating, there, Mike...even a smidge. And where there's one, there's likely... :whistle: