Fake Rainbow Toned Coins - Artificial Colors

Catbert,

The most obvious similarity I see between the 2 photos is the die crack/scratch that appears to the right of the 1 in the date. Since I doubt there were many different obv dies, it maybe is apparent in all of these coins. Also in deference, there is a "disturbance" or mark between the 9th and 10th star that is not on the non-toned coin. There is a mark on the eagles upper right wing of the non-toned, that doesn't stand out in the toned one.
If it is the same coin, it would have had to been dipped before it was artificially or naturally toned, as the toned areas around the stars and devices have been eliminated in the toned coin photo. Since the photos probably haven't been around long enough for NT, one is left with the choice of AT if the same coin or they are different coins. If we had very very large photos, maybe we could look at the areas closer. As it is, I have doubts it is the same coin. If it is, I am pretty sure it was dipped before AT.

Jim

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

ehres another AT

 

I assume you mean the seller that JimMayor was posting with the Morgans. The other coins are famous from Greg G on the NGC boards- he is a dealer of high end coins. I am guess you know that AJ. The listing you put here is closed, FYI

 

I would say this coin is 100% MS 70. Still very pretty coin.

 

But it would make you want to pay less for it, given its market value just dropped out from under it. Or wouldn't it?

I have to agree with Mike (Leadfoot) on this one, Lehigh; IMHO, too, you're kidding with yourself, as you have no basis to make that statement, outside of blind faith (which some of us don't happen to share, BTW).

 

I've seen that look, before, many times. So, that's what that is. Never used the dip, Boss, so I didn't know. Still, very pretty...I agree.

 

The answer to your question is no. If another person besides myself both ignored the AT label, I would still pay what I was willing to pay when the coin had the NT label. The reason for this is simple. If I had that coin, I would never sell it. In essence, I would probably be the only person in the world who wants that coin to be called AT, it would make the coin available for sale at a ridiculously low price.

Regarding the coin doctor thing, I can make the same "no basis" statement about you and others. What basis does everyone have to say the there are an army of coin doctors out there that are getting AT coins past the graders at NGC and PCGS. I have seen AT coins encapsulated, but they are few and far between in my search for toned coins. If there were that many successful coin doctors getting coins past the graders, slabbed AT coins would be very, very common. My basis for making my statement is simple. I search for (and sometimes purchase) graded rainbow toned coins every day. I have done this for years. As a percentage of total coins that I view, the number of graded toned coins that I believe are AT is extremely small.

I will go even further and state that the majority of the AT coins I have seen in holders are ones that were once considered "market acceptable" and are no longer viewed that way. Examples are Peacock IKE's, blue Indians, and of course, Appalachian Jefferson Nickels. If you would like to prove me wrong, go ahead an post some links to as many slabbed AT coins currently in auction as you can. If you find more than 10, I will be impressed.

 

Sorry jumping in late (this is a great post). I am assuming this coin is one of G Garmuli's as it is listed with his other coins. Some one could PM him as he is one this site occasionally and ask if that's his coin. He is pretty forward about this stuff. I believe the Gorbecht dollar is definitely the same coin. The mark below the first "L" in dollar and the mark below the beark. Look closely at those two spots.

I believe he is very, very good at this and I am sure has perfected these techniques, and would therefore do this to a 4 figure coin as he knows how it will turn out. I would never try this though, I have used MS 70 on pre-1982 cents which looked much nicer after treatment. I think the coin looks better, personally, though it removed the toning and revealed more nicks. I agree with Lehigh and Jim about the AT and NT debate. I like attractive coins more than any other types of coin. I like his suggestion re: Holdering the coins and putting questionable toning and letting the market decide.

 

Boss,

Did Greg Marguli ever tell you directly that he uses MS70 on the coins he sells? If not, then I will wait for the slightly evil one to show up and respond to your post himself.

 

Ruben, this is a good thesis, and I don't disagree with it at all, but hopefully all of the people who subscribe to this, also discard their sparkly white dipped coins, or at least never dip a single morgan. I believe there are countless more dipped coins being transacted and slabbed than AT coins. The overwhelming theory is dipping is OK if it does minimal damage to the surface. I suspect it does as much or more than artificially toning a coin. Why do people dip a coin? For the same reasons one tones a coin? Beauty, rarity, increase in grade and thus pricing?

Fair should be Fair.

Jim

 

Ah - Our resident mad scientist has awoken! I'm not a proponent of dipping them either but that aint no Morgan either. That is a Gobrecht Flying Eagle.

You'd have to be more than a little reckless to dip one of those things as well. Don't dipit, don't laminate it, don't polish it and never send it to the Smithsonian ....

Ruben

 

Rueben, Jim wasn't saying the coin is question is a Morgan. He's a pretty astute dude. He is referencing the common practice of dipping Morgans to get upgrades. There are an extremely small percentage of people who own Gorbrecht dollars and even smaller who would dip one. Besides, Leadfoot posted this coin. Where did you get that photo Mike? He should tell us about this coin, since he posted it. It would be easy to find out what happened to this coin actually with a little research. I could find it on the NGC or PCGS boards if I had more time, but I will bet it is whose I said it was earlier.

 

"that aint no Morgan either" was an expression

 

Do I talk with aint?

 

Not usually, my literate friend.:hug:
I am never surprised by what man does for greed. And remember that cleaning and cyanide dipping was long considered fashionable and proper coin maintenance.

Jim

 

I'll take that challenge when I get a bit more time (this weekend perhaps)...

To hold you over, please see my last post for 7 (in one past auction, incidentally):

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=223988

Paruse any proof IHC or MPL and chances are it's AT and/or conserved, particularly if it has that "look". And that's only proof copper....Mike

p.s. had you asked this back when Anaconda was selling their inventory at Heritage, I could have had a field day.

 

Mike,

Are you saying that the TPG's still consider the blue Indians and MPL's market acceptable and are still slabbing them. If that is the case, then I apologize, because everyone I know considers them to be AT.

My challenge was to find AT coins in auction not from the formerly "market acceptable" groups. Meaning you could not post an auction lot containing an Appalachian Jefferson, blue Indian, or Peacock IKE. I re-read my post and did not make that entirely clear. However, if the TPG's are still slabbing blue toned coppers treated with MS70, then feel free to include them.

I will say this though, the MS70 treated proof IHC's and MPL's are more attractive than the originals IMO.

The coins I wanted you to find are the ones like this.



The colors, progression, and pattern on this coin are all off IMO. If I was a grader at a TPG, I would have bagged this coin.

 

That is precisely what I am suggesting. AT coins that the TPGs consider "market acceptable" yet they know full well the coins are AT. These are not QT coins, they are no-brainer AT coins that the TPGs choose to look the other way on.

What's worse is that this is only one group of coins that are deemed "market acceptable" -- yet there are others. Many album toned coins are what I would call AT (or at best QT), and the same goes for envelope toned coins. Could be NT could be AT -- therefore I call them QT.

However, I understand your intent is not to call these coins AT, and I will not include them in the list -- but suffice to say that most album and envelope toned coins are called into question based on what I've seen, heard, and learned about this topic over the years.

That doesn't make them any less pretty though, as you point out.

Respectfully...Mike

 

The statement and question were rhetorical. At least, that's what I had thought. Nonetheless, I can assure you, I don't find your reply incredulous, in the least. If you like the toning, you like the toning. If that's what it's about, you're just collecting the coin, without regard to resale value, who cares that it might have been bid up against a shill? If you like it, you like it. More power to you.

I'll give you two reasons. One, toning is now a grading factor...it's no longer just icing on the cake...it will actually raise the market grade and market value of the coin. Two, the TPGs wouldn't know a professionally-doctored coin if you stuck it in their ears. Add those two together, see what conclusions you arrive at.

This is a volatile market; you just conceded, as much, in your first sentence. You're a gambler? Gamble. Some aren't as "daring," let's just call it. Let's appreciate that, too...