Experiment with Verdigone (tm) on copper cents

All these Dips and Cleaners. I thought I would try a dip. Below is the results, Before and After of my dip.






I dipped in my wallet and found a replacement.. Works 100% of the time and is guaranteed.

 

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well depends on what you mean by hurt next time put a human tooth in coke and it will disappear too.

 

Most of what you say is correct, but most of the rest is not applicable on the scale we are interested in. For coins, you are only interested in the surface molecules. MSDS's deal in large reactions. You need to study ionic/covalent bonding more. It is a type of bonding, not a type of element.

All in all, what you say about mineral oil is close to right, however, what else is in the mineral oil? If you read that reference I made earlier (in another thread) about acetone affects copper, it is not the pure acetone that does the damage. However, acetone reacts with the air to form a compound that does react with the copper.

You present the biggest argument against using oils.

Dust is known to spot coins. Is mineral oil known to prevent spotting? And, no matter what you do, can you guarantee that there will be no dust in your slab/airtite?

 

I love it...you have no idea of the chemistry involved, what something might do or not do...you have no real reasons to give...you dont care to know...yet you seem so sure what is right or wrong...In essence you are completely uninformed as to the science behind it...but you are going to say conclusively what is wrong or right.

Without doubt change is hard to accept...especially when there is often no logical reason or defense for a point of view but simply because other people think its bad.

Its funny but I would call a person who actually THINKS about WHY something might be a bad and makes an INFORMED decision on REAL science as a more sophisticated collector...not a person who says...I dont care about the actual chemistry, or the reasons...its just bad because someone said so now jump on the band wagon.

sometimes it is painfull to read some of the opinions put forth here and know that a whole gaggle of collectors are going to take it as gospel.

 

terrible anology...these are two different substances with completely different properties!! This is why just saying things are bad without any real attention to the science and chemistry is the real bad habit...If you dont care about the facts of the matter, the actual chemistry and science behind something..thus you obviously dont really know enough to speak in an informed manner about it...why bother offering opinions?

 

I have no idea just who you are referring to, but often the best science is when I do A, I get B. That is where most, if not all, of our "sciences" actually were derived. It does not require the chemistry knowledge to figure out that when you put a coin in acid, it changes.

 

You always speak for 'most' collectors but to date, I have found that when you do so...its seldom the case...as I often receive PMs and talk to many collectors who are frustrated with the lack of real information out there about this important topic of conservation and the chemistry involved, they want to conserve coins, they want to learn these things. But if collectors are fed the same misinformation by people, information that is not rooted in logic or scientific fact, and they just take it as fact because its coming from a guy they respect who says 'its just the way it is'...then there is probably a problem with the collectors that could be changed with REAL information from people who know the science through real familiarity with the subject and actual trial and error...and not just personal opinion or follow the leader.

Saying that you just dont care about the science of conservation, how things ACTUALLY effect metal...then speaking with authority that its just wrong because you say so and your idea of a majority agrees with you (people who possibly also have never taken the time to LEARN about what they are commenting about)...this should be a big red flag for someone who is looking for advice. Its best not to just jump on the band wagon.

A thread like this gives me hope because it shows a person who is actually TESTING a procedure and looking to get to the truth of the matter and not just blurting out opinions they have bought into without any real attempt to justify those opinions with cold hard facts...it shows that indeed there are collectors who think for themselves, value factual information, trial and error, discovery, and truth as apposed to opinion. So thanks for the informative thread...

 

Doug, most people probably don't like oils on their coins as it definitely "hides" problems. I don't oil them for this reason. I oil them for protection. If you don't care about the science that is you loss, but please kind to those who have differing opinions than yours. You seem to get obviously irritated and this closes open discussion. For anyone to say the speak for an entire segment of the numismatic community is bold. I think if this could be discussed in not such emphatic terms that will allow people to exchange ideas instead of all or nothing. You may not care about the science, but I do and I think you might be in the minority on that position. The science of this is the Truth. Your opinion is just that- an opinion that can be either verified or disproven. This isn't rocket science and nothing has been said haven't said that sounds convincing to me. Sorry, if I sound rude in anyway, but I am not convinced with an authoritarian manner of speaking without proof. If I sold my coins I would likely remove, but if I sold on eBay I would not and I doubt it would make any difference. I bought several lacquered coins and didn't know till later and I have some reasonable knowledge about coins. My dealer who is quite knowledgable has bought several coppers from me with mineral oil on. As well those on coppercents.com advocate it and many on the NGC boards. They may not leave it on the coins, but they certainly adbvocate it's use as needed. Just MHO.

 

Could someone post photos of an oiled coin compared to an untreated coin? It took me quite some time to learn to spot cleaned coins. Now, I'm not entirely sure I would spot an oiled coin. What are the signs?

Thanks.

 

Well Doug, I hear what your saying, and glad you can agree oil can protect coins. It does not chemically alter the surface (there is not a chemical exchange of ions or breaking of chemical bonds except to degrade grime and verdigris). Can be removed with acetone or xylene (pure acetone does not change the coin- unless it's not pure. Most all collectors agree on that, and you yourslef (Doug) have given detailed instruction on how to do so- 3 dishes of acetone and a final rinse with distilled water. Most collectors don't believe this harms the coin in anyway and can remove recent finger prints and PVC damage.

Cloudsweeper: Look under "Post some Lincolns" last few pages at my 1915-it has a lot of mineral oil on it. I will post some coins perhaps before and after mineral oil later on. Also it's on my profile page.

 

Did you ever submit the 1915? If so, how was it graded and did the oil affect the submission?

 

For Cloudsweeper- I will start a new post. Called "Rose thorns and Oil". I will post in a few minutes. I don't want to get off Jim's topic so much. It's funny- I was trying to write my response to GD's response and Dru basically said the same thing as me and I hadn't read his. I agree with Dru 100%. I wouldn't try to sell to much at a coin show, as dealers pay too little for coins in my opinion, so I wouldn't have any reason to try to sell, but next show I will do it just for fun. An oiled and non-oiled coin and let you guys know. GD- to say you don't care about the science doesn't sound very intelligent. That sounds the same as saying I will stay in my blissful ignorance and follow what I have always known. I question everything in life that doesn't sound right to me, and examine the evidence for and against. Had the Germans done this they wouldn't have empowered Hitler. Maybe most of collectors are wrong. I actually think that most collectors are extremely concerned about preservation, and will try anything to preserve their collection. That being said the ultimate preservation for all coins is a dry environment, ideally slabbed (NGC is more air-tight than PCGS as Mr White proved in his book "Coin Chemistry"). Kointains proved to be more air-tight than Airtite's (the brand), but most don't like because of the striations on the holder. Oiling for copper (I don't really do with Silver much) is another tool to prevent damage, and I mostly use for AU and below coins. Will those coins grade with mineral oil in third party slabs- ABSOLUTLEY, as long as it's not too thick, i.e., coating. And to answer Cloudsweeper, no I haven't submitted yet, but I have submitted others and they graded everytime.

 

End of experiment.

Here are the last photos of the verdigone experiment. I am going to remove all coins from solutions, rinse with water, and then allow to sit in open air for 10 days to see if there is a change in the toning. I will post photos then.

Verdigone effects for 0hrs-8days. I tried to combine so you wouldn't have to go back and forth to see. I left one out, but it isn't necessary
As you know from a previous post, my microscope light bulb died in the middle , and it is one that is expensive and several weeks to deliver, and I would have to buy a minimum number so I bought a replacement at the 99 cent store.:goofer:








Final comparison photo of the control ( left) and the verdigone treated (right) at 8days


Here is what it looked like at the beginning



UNCIRCULATED CENT COMPARISON ( using the 2 coins picked as closest in color.

START:


END of EXPERIMENT: Verdigone coin on left in both photos below




My summary view:

1. Even though the Verdigone solution did not produce a complete result, the effect it had is very apparent. There was no way of knowing exactly what the structure of the corrosion/verdigris was at the surface. In order to stay in the premise of the experiment, no physical effort, such as with a thorn or a toothpick was not a factor. In other experiments, I found that a thin flat area of verdigris was most easily removed rather than one that was "mounded". I think that this part did show that verdigris can be removed by the solution.

2. It is obvious at this point that a change occurred in the patina towards a more "pink/violet" tint. It is hard to judge from the photos as to whether the result would be acceptable or not to the owner. I am leaving this conclusion open until the coins have sit in air for the 10 days.

3. On the uncirculated coins, There was a change also in the patina. My error was to use coins that were nearly 50 years old. Uncirculated or not, they surely had some patina. After the period of time in the Verdigone, the coin was actually very similar in color to some new ones I received from the bank. As you can see from the effect the water had on the reverse of the other coin, the Verdigone seemed have a protective effect.

My Conclusion is that Verdigone does attack verdigris on copper, but it is just a conservation tool and experience and practice will determine which coins would be best served. Each coin will be different. Patina on copper is of course a combination of several copper compounds from exposure to the environment and patina color change will be determined by the time exposed to Verdigone as well as the type of patina chemical makeup, (which is not easily determined).

Since my photos may be lacking, after the "sitting" portion is completed, I will mail the 4 experimental coins to anyone who wants to see them in hand and is willing to pay postage both ways and donate a couple of dollars to the forum support.

Thanks for being patient.
Jim

Looking forward to comments!:kewl:

 

i think some coins are going to go down

 

some good always come from these posts unless we have a madman rambling. now here is the $10000 question. can laquered coins be safely restored so that they grade with TPG. I have got a heritage to protect here so .....