Experiment with Verdigone (tm) on copper cents

Yep, put the sample in the injector, inject it into the mass spec and wait for the graph with the peaks of any compounds in the sample. Forgot about the mass spec. Been a long time since I took quantative analysis.

 

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now here is the problem jim as from your pics there is still some verdi left and thats the one that refuses to go in biox

 

36 Hr results

Here are the 36 hrs photos ( seems like longer ) . I am more hopeful as not only is the green disappearing as expected, it seems possible that the area will not be one deep pit. Also the coloration under seems to be still close, but wont know until the end.



Also just as extra, here is the complete coin at 36 hrs. Pretend it is your 1909-SVDB.



Spock, I could have left it longer, but he kept wanting to know how it was going.....you have to be patient. This only works on copper.

Jim

 

So the real question is what's better - damage with green corrosion showing, or damage with no corrosion showing? I'd avoid the coin altogether but what if it was a 1793, or a 1877 Indian, or a 1909S Indian, or a 1909SVDB Lincoln - which way would you go?

 

Cool experiment! Granted, the pitting is unattractive, but I would prefer having it over the green disease on a key date. It also makes me feel more comfortable that my coin is damaged, but not infested.

 

I have seen postings on the other forum where people ask about throwing all their infected coppers into a bucket of this:bigeyes: To use properly, you have to experiment and pay attention to the progress. Maybe I should have put the large cent photos up as a poll. I would prefer the pitted one over the greenie, if as you say it was a key or even semi-key. Some might think the solution has failed if visible pits results, but the purpose of the stuff is to remove the green. Yes it is best to avoid problem coins.

A semi-key I bought and conserved last year. 1908-S IHC . Once removed, there was a difference in the underlying coloration as well as "scratches/lines" which weren't readily visible before. I did not use any scraping or thorn , etc. Maybe the scratches were part of the reason the verdigris formed there. Now to wait a long while to see if it retones








Jim

 

Doug, I have never personally used Biox, and I can't find any physical or chemical properties on the net that might give an idea as to it's makeup. The photos that I have seen of Biox treated coins, almost all ancients I must admit , really ended up with a very definite "pinkish " tone, I usually associate with an acid or a chemical that readily reacts with Cupric oxide. Maybe someone would want to do an experiment on different dilutions of Biox and see if they can find a range that would remove the verdigris and not turn the copper pink.

I do agree with you on the '08s. But I am surprised that I have had a few attractive offers on it ( even with known history).

Jim

 

48 Hrs results

Here are the 48 hrs results. Left is lighting used in others, right is with an extra closeup light to show the extent.
Jim

 

This experiment is great Jim. I am soaking a 1920 D Lincoln in Verdigone as I write this. I have before pics and I will post maybe, in another post, the before and after photos as an addendum to your experiment. Veridigone definitely removes verdigris, and you have to keep checking the coin as, in my experience, it changes the color to blueish, orangish, redish hues. It seems the coins will calm down pretty soon thereafter. I like your 08 after Verdigone. It looked terrible before with the green junk. I would put in an album or in paper flip and leave out in the open. As I understand coins will tone in a dry environment in the presence of sulfur but it takes longer than in a humid environment. Your live in the desert right, so it could take a while for you? I live by the beach so that experiment makes me nervous because the air and moisture can make new problems while toning the coins- at least that's my fear.

 

I am coming late into your excellent thread Jim, but i find it really interesting how you are doing this using the rigour of a controlled experiment.
I have seen the results your posted some time ago with the '08 IHC and was impressed then. I have some coins that could really benefit from this, so hope that you will let us know where to get this product!
Thanks for an excellent thread on a topic dear (or feared!) by all copper lovers.

Eduard

 

Yup! It's common to see on older coppers, especially ground finds. Most of my old coppers had verdigris on them when they arrived but I removed it, to stop the corrosion from continuing, and now they look much better. :thumb:

Ribbit

 

now you have broken my heart and poor comems coin future looks bleak

 

pure biox on copper 5 seconds or less no pink
keep diluting it and the results will vary but yes it is possible to use biox and avoid pinkness which is nothing but over exposure to the chemical.

but i have a unique way of figuring out if its biox get a nickel coin thats infested and use the solution biox is very bad with nickel coins

 

I have used Biox quite a bit. The Biox is not an acid thats for sure. I do not know what it is (If I did I would mix it up myself).

Biox, if used in a strong solution or for a long period of time will remove the patina exposing pink copper which is pretty much the natural color of copper. Copper is rather supple in its pure state and (when fresh) has a pinkish or almost orange (peach) color...and that is often what you get when you strip an ancient LRB...using something like vinegar, electrolysis, or other things that strip it bare...It is not turning the coin pink, it is turning it back to the natural color of pure copper.

With Biox it depends on the coin and how bad the verdigris it. You might simply be unable to save the patina if you are forced to keep it on too long but I ALWAYS dilute it to about 1-3 or 1-5. All the same its better to save the coin and let the patina go...I have stripped coins that are still very attractive.

I have been able to also spot treat verdigris with Biox which, if done right, it will not strip the whole coin and only affect the verdigris.

One thing I have found that people neglect to mention when treating verdigris (at least with Biox or other similar methods) is the manual removal of the affected spots....this is very important I think. For any collector this is bad but for a modern collector this is probably even worse to hear as with an ancient, a pit or two in the surface is quite acceptable...but before you treat the verdigris, its best to take a needle or something similar and break up the powdery area, kind of digging out the infected area...For people who just want to soak it and have it go away with out manual cleaning of the area...this might be bad news...lots of times the verdigris, even when it appears just to be surface spots...go deeper into the coin and you need to stir it up and expose those parts or you will miss them and the verdigris will come back with a vengeance.

I have had some success with soaking in a mixture of between 1 to 5% of sodium
sesquicarbonate as well.

Like most though, manual removal of the spot can be important and using either SSC or Biox to stabalize the remainder is the best bet.

 

Great work here, Jim.
I can't think of an instance I'd rather keep the verdigris on the coin. By removing it you are greatly reducing the chances that the coin will continue to erode.

Bruce

 

Here are the 60 hr photo ( 2 1/2 days). After this photo, I changed the fluids for fresh.
Jim

 

Jim, on that '08-S, that's one of the pitfalls of using anything. At least, in my experience, that's what I've found. To one degree or another, depending on how "invasive" the solution is, it's going to turn up underlying infirmities that may or may not have otherwise been apparent, and it's going to affect/change the shading/coloring/tone. I don't know whether the latter can make a comeback. I guess we'll be able to determine that once you post those updated pictures in 20 years from now. That's February 6, 2029, now, mark it on your calendar. Don't forget, or I'm going to send my friend Guido out looking for you.

Very educational thread you started, here, for our collective benefit...keep it up! :thumb:

 

Hi Eddie,
Yes, there were risks there that did come about. As you might guess from the before photo, it didn't get much action at the local club auction, and I needed to know how the solution would react in such a case. So the price was worth it to me.Of course,I hoped much was PVC gunk and would come off with acetone, but no. I certainly hope I am still around in 2029.:whistle: Maybe my IRA will be back!

Hi Drusus,

Physical action to remove loose verdigris does help the chemical action also. I have experimented with some other IHC and found that a toothpick with the tip soaked in water or verdigone can help remove some of it and speed up the reaction. However, in this experiment I was very careful to do it with only the verdigone as I wanted to see how much effect the chemical had on the patina, rather than how much verdigris was removed or how long it took. That is why I used controls in distilled water for the 45S and the 60D uncs. Several times I have seen postings that indicated the patina would be affect by any removal chemicals and I wanted to know for sure before I contradicted general theory. I knew it would take off the verdigris from experience, but I honestly wasn't sure if the patina was altered any. After this ends, I will fell more secure in commenting.

If the UNCs do OK, I thought maybe I would try some proofs

Jim

 

Hi! 72 hrs in the solution. Just a little green left. There is some lighter area where the larger border of the verdigris was. Time marches on. Coin is wet as before.
Jim



whole coin. 72 hrs.